painting & prep-- Slickshift?

sundog

Hi, I'm a Noob here and have done a few "assistant" gigs with others. Ive done trim, int & ext with what I assume were alkyd semi-gloss paint and purdy/armstrong methods and a very occasional rolled room in whatever latex the h.o. bought. It generally turned out well, I'm pretty careful.

This time it is MY house, a prev. rental with unfortunately a history of pets and chainsmoking. (I have asthma) The last renter had cats and kept a litterbox in a closet. The last resident owner had very messy dogs looking at the carpets. (I'm told the carpets were cleaned 2x in 2 yrs, the stains still feel greasy when you slide your shoes on them.) I got a great deal on the house, and I want to take a shot at DIY. I dont think I can afford to pay a pro what their time is worth to do the job, a ballpark estimate was $800 for the ceiling alone. I'm not sure that included paint, I doubt it. (1400 sf 3/2 home w/20x20 garage. I'm guessing min $3200 total, but he hasnt called me back, we both have newborns.

floor plan #1414: http://www.celebrityhomes.com/floorplan.asp?fpid=1

The wallpaper in the kitchen and bath has ripped out by my "helpers" with moderate damage to the rock/mud. (they ran out of remover and went at it with hot water. The rock had not been sized or primed. *shrug*) Helpers have since gone home, wont be back till June.

I've pulled all the faceplates, fixtures and ceiling fan trim plates.

I have already bought Kilz ONE for 7.77/gal to prime with. (6 five gal cans) I estimated it as 1400sf @200sf/gal for popcorn ceilings, 1500sf ballpark + 1400sf @300 sf/gal for walls and slab. I can return an extra full can if I overbought.

Kitchen and bath have been screen-sanded to debooger the walls and I plan to vacuum, swiffer, wash with tsp-sub, prime, patch/mud (green lid as skim too) /level, reprime and color coat x2.

Other walls are to be scuff-sanded, vacuumed, swiffered, washed with TSP-sub and rinsed, then kilzed and 2x color coated. The current paint looks like a grey/blue tinted off-white eggshell latex and barely buttery satin oil on trim and doors. (tho the trim has translucent-clear amber sags or brushmarks) Ceiling looks like textured junk flat, several layers inc a prev tan tobacco layer.

I'm hoping to be able to use BM or SW 2d or midline grades. Valspar integrity or lifetime may also be available. The local former ACE's has valspar but I forgot to write which line.

Right now the place is *not* occupied and the carpets will be replaced with laminate. I plan to prime the slab with kilz too (recommended b/c of pet stains by a random flooring installer I ran across.) Bedrooms may be recarpeted if I cant convince my wife otherwise.

(if anyone knows about a flooring line called Hampton through best buy flooring stores with a 10.3 mil wear layer let me know)(or a good site with real specs on product lines. Looking at pergo, mohawk, a line at home despot and looking for other lines available in the SE.)

Back to painting.

I had planned to brush in cuts / roll / backroll cuts, and brush the trim. Neutral walls and roll on color accent wall coats later (negotiations are ongoing, the fireplace tile has a blue-grey underglaze swirl under a white satin glaze, the kitchen cabinets are a heavily offwhite glazed oak with a pink/orange filler in the pores, hence the hideous but matching pink floral wallpaper. The orange/amber everywhere may be nicotine, I'm not sure.

A paint shop guy (who sold me the kilz) suggested spraying and offered to rent his for-sale-new-at-$900 sprayer at $25 a day to me. He also suggested scraping the popcorn off the ceilings.

Sounds great, but Ive never used one. He and another painter(?) suggested spraying the ceiling, walls, slab and trim at least to prime, then masking (or using giant tape knife looking shield) and spraying or rolling color and mini roll or brushing trim.

I also have a wagner power roller, paint stick (squeeze grip) and the old paintstick available to me. I bought a couple of sherlock rollers anyway.

What do youse guys think? Please separate recommendations according to application method, if they do differ.

Thanks

Bob

*edit* I also have cracked caulk around several windowframes, please recommend a caulk and when to put it in in the painting process (before prime, after, after color?)

oops, kitchen and bath paint recommendations?

slickshift

Hi sundog
Welcome to the forums

Former rental huh?
It will need some help
Hopefully mostly just cosmetic

I'm not familiar with Kilz ONE
Is that latex or oil-based?
Though I'm not fond of the latex Kilz, it may come in handy later
If it's the "Original Kilz" or oil-based, you will need it later

For this particular project, the kitchen and bath, you'll need a specialty primer for the damaged walls
Zinsser's "Gardz" is designed for this exact type of damage

You may be OK with "Original Kilz" oil-based primer, but only if there is absolutely no adhesive whatsoever left on the walls
I'd suggest the "Gardz" to seal the walls just to be safe

Do not clean the walls with TSP
Use the wallpaper removal solution's suggestion (which is often rinse with water), and if it still needs cleaning, use an ammonia/water solution
Sand/swiffer if needed (probably won't at this point)
Prime with Gardz
Fill repair areas with joint compound
Sand smooth, clean/swiffer
Spot prime repairs, or prime entire wall if needed/easier
A good quality latex primer can be used at this point, or if you still have Gardz left, you can use that
If there's a color issue, go with a regular white primer (the Gardz is milky)
You could use the latex Kilz here, but it would not be my first choice
In fact, as Ks and Bs are tough on primers, I'm not sure I would use a latex Kilz even if I had some lying around
(It has a high failure rate)
I'd recommend Ben Moore's Fresh Start, Sherwin William's Prep Rite, or Zinsser's 1-2-3

Two coats quality latex paint
As you requested a suggestion, I'd say it's never a bad idea to go with a Kitchen and Bath paint for kitchens and/or baths
You can always make your own by using additives, but as there don't seem to be reasons to do that with this project, I'd suggest Moore's K&B (Ben Moore), or Zinsser's Perma-White (I've heard the SW K&B is good also, just haven't used it myself)

The Z's P-W is the best for sticking in high humidity areas, and mold and mildew resistance, but is only tintable to light colors and pastels
So it's good for whites and lights
If you want darker colors than that, then M's K&B is my suggestion
(Real deep colors, then make your own)
I'd skip the "mid" lines
They are basically priced for DIYers who "don't want the best, but don't want the cheapest"
I know, that probably sounds like you, but here's the deal
They are formulated for that price point
They know a lot of DIYers don't know which paint to buy, and wouldn't know the difference off-hand between an $25 a gal. paint and a $35 a gal. paint
The consumer sure that the cheapest at $15 must be not as good, but aren't sure what would make the $35 one (which now looks high) better than the $25 one
The company knows the mid grade will sell tons by default
So, they make a slightly better than cheap paint, which should be about $20, and charge $25 for it
Voila, Cha-Ching

So, like in the Ben Moore line-up, there's the Super-Hide (cheapo) "contractor grade", there's a need and use for it, and it's a good price (for what you get)

And there's the Regal line (premium), well worth every penny for a top performing paint like this

Then there's the Super Spec (mid-grade)
Many Ben Moore paint suppliers don't even have this on the shelves
It just not worth the price
If you're looking for cheap, you are better off with the Super Hide
If you are looking for quality, you are better off with the Regal

Same with SW or Pittsburgh
The "mids" are simply there for a marketing/sales reason

The ACE stuff is not bad, but not as good as the good stuff from BM, SW, P

And the good stuff from those guys will save you lots of heartache and time
Many DIYers forget that their time is valuable also, and saving $7 a gallon can mean extra days worth of work

He means the oil-based primer
There can be no moisture what-so-ever on that slab
Other than that, as there rarely "never any moisture" on slabs around here (lol), I don't really get to use oil on concrete, so I can't really comment
But it's my understanding that that may work

"Original Kilz" (oil-based) works well as an oil primer (unlike the latex Kilz products)
If that's the Kilz you have, I would hesitate to use it in this manner


If you were painting the whole place, walls, trim, ceiling, all one color, I'd consider suggesting that to a newbie
But in reality, spraying does not save any time
Not for a non-pro
It takes about the same amount of time, maybe a little longer the first few times
The prep is huge and very time consuming, and the potential for disaster is high...and there is a bit of a learning curve on those sprayers

I can see why the pro might think he'd like to spray, or the sales guy might say "spray it"
But in reality, unless it's all one color or you've assisted (masked and sprayed) before, your original plan to brush and roll is best
This could be a problem
If the Kilz you have is oil-based, now's the time to break that out
If it's not, I'd recommend Ben Moore's alkyd (oil) Fresh Start, or an oil-based primer from SW
let it dry as long as possible-make sure it's sticks
If it holds, then two coats with a premium quality latex
I'd be sticking with the Sherlocks, but if you can get the power rollers and paint sticks to get into the groove w/o making a mess or making you frustrated, then go for it

After prime, before color
Any good 35-45 or 50 year paintable... silicon-ized (not silicone, sink, tub, tile type) caulk should be fine

Sounds like you've got a little project there
Really, don't skimp on the paint quality
On a project this big it can really set you back lots of labor if you need three (or more) coats in a few rooms

Please don't hesitate to ask any questions
Good Luck!

sundog

Wow, thanks for the fast reply!

I'm still re reading your reply, but yes, the kilz is the original oil -based (and I do have VOC cartridge masks).

I'll crosspost to the flooring forum, but i'm assuming something like olympic sealant or a purpose-designed concrete sealant for the slab is the right idea.

Bob

sundog

I'm with you on the paint quality, if I get 300sf/gal on a primed surface, thats 5 gals/coat for the house , whats another $200? Wish I could afford the other $2.5k for the painter too but oh well. I believe I'm being very conservative on that coverage too as far as the color coats.

I'm expecting the kilz to be sucked up pretty badly on the popcorn at 200sf/gal. Do you think 2 coats will be needed to prime? Ditto for guardz/zinsser?

Rentalness: The place is very gently used as far as I can tell with some "hidden" stains that havent bled through the current paintwhich is 2 years old. (I can see the texture of the spot repairs) Most current damage seems to be pet stains. Drywall, etc in good shape and the roof survived several hurricanes intact (no stains on current coat of paint, 2 yrs old) Roll flooring in kitch is marred, but counters, appliances and fixtures all look and feel new. I wish it didnt have the fireplace, I lost a big room corner, it never has been used (and wont) and more flashing to potentially leak on the roof. Not to mention the flue prob eats my heat/ac $$. Ditto for moron that installed a dish on the roof in a hurricane zone, after the storms. Its going in the yard *if* I subscribe. Cool to put a fishtank in the fireplace, hmmm. Maybe not. Access/cleaning issues.

OK, so:

K/B: already sanded, swiffer, no TSP-sub

use water/ammonia on k/b walls then zinsser guardz or 1-2-3

or was that guardz to seal glue residue, then 1-2-3 anyway to prime?
then proceed as you listed? I'd prob roll the kitchen anyway too many cabinets to work around and not much wall. prob BM kb to finish.


Rest of house:

Scuff, swiff, TSP and orig kilz prime. 2 good topcoats spray or roll.

What abt the trim and doors, Kilz orig ok there too, then oil/alkyd color? Should I spray(*if* I spray), small roll, or brush for color? I was going to brush. Prob do it in the garage, hanging them from ceiling like finishing a wood door. Roll flats and brush panel bevels (never did doors before, just walls and ceiling) or is that a texture clash?

The orange-amber was on glass (dishwasher works great, switch and outlet covers next load), trim and doors. The walls have stain but it isnt "orange" the tobacco brown layer is years old and 1 or 2 paintings in.

You dont care for the valspar integrity or lifetime? I thought it was on one of your posts that the lifetime was eq to BM, maybe it was another pro's. Lifetime appears to be at least 2 grades over american tradition, which after lurking here isnt a consideration. Or Behr's.

OK, no sprayer.



*off to look what your fave ceiling paint was*

Bob

slickshift

Mmm...I didn't even mention that
regardless of what the label says, the actual physical coverage of the better paints can be 100-200 sq. ft. higher than the stated coverage of the cheap paints
No
There's rarely any need for two coats primer
Primer is to help paint adhere, and to seal in the substrate (surface)
It also can help when doing drastic color changes, but that is not is primary purpose
A properly primered surface is not supposed to look like it's been painted, and blotches are accepted and expected
As long as there is primer on the surface you're good

However, you are correct in two things
1) That the popcorn may suck up a lot of primer
2) That you should probably use an oil primer on the popcorn before painting
Not always, but the best advice I can give you w/o seeing it is to oil prime
If it's got smokers tar or water stains you should oil-prime it, and if it's "questionable adhesion" (which they often are) you should oil prime it

If it's pretty solid popcorn, with no water/tar stains, a nice ceiling paint should go up w/no issues

If you see something that you think might bleed through, you should hit it with Kilz or BIN (I prefer BIN-and really like the spray can of BIN for this, but understand you may have an open can of Kilz on site )
Yeah that was Gardz the walls that used to have wallcovering on them, and now have sheetrock paper exposed

That's to seal and set the problem wall surfaces

You could paint right over that, but it sounds like you'll be jointcompounding some rough areas to repair them

These repair areas will need priming before painting
The Gardz will be OK for that, if you've got some left
But a better choice would be Fresh Start, 1-2-3, or Prep Rite

If there a lot of repair areas, it's better to prime the whole wall rather than spot repair

Close
There should be no need to prime the rest of the house

The only time the rest should need primer is drastic color changes, drywall repair areas
If there is, it should be a latex primer (BM's FS, Z's 1-2-3, SW's PrepRite), not Kilz oil

The exception would be sealing in stains that might bleed through
Then it's spot prime with Kilz


It depends what's on there now, oil or latex paint
I suspect it's latex, and there should be no need for primer unless there's lots of repairs, bare wood, drastic color change, or oil/latex switchover

If it's oil on there now, I'd stick with oil for the re-paint
And again, there's not likely a reason to prime
Just the things mentioned above

I prefer brushing trim and doors, but you could roll the doors if you want
If they are flat
If they are six-panel doors, then brush for sure

Sometimes rolling the doors to get the paint on quickly, then "back-brushing" with a brush to smooth out the stipple left by the roller works well
That's up to you

A good indication the tar is from a few occupants ago
Just be aware, and seal anything you suspect may bleed through
I don't believe I've used valspar integrity or lifetime
I can't recommend AmTrad or Behr
Lol

Ben Moore's Muresco is tops

sundog

Hi,

The reason for the mass Kilz priming is the 100% nicotine coverage, and my asthma. I dont mind wearing the resp to paint, but I dont want it to sleep in

The coverage and labor estimates were all from me and a local painter

Another local guy (Ace paint dept mgr) says the amber on the gloss or semigloss trim and doors could be an old urethane (or similar) finish that has yellowed. D'y'think? He said the same scuff, tsp, kilz & topcoat applies. Gloss was recommended b/c of sticky baby fingers.

Sanding btn coats anywhere was overkill unless I *really* wanted a very smooth finish. And to expect 400sf/gal on any good paint going on primed repainted walls, ex for the drywall, popcorn etc.

He likes topline valspar, the lifetime, but he happens to sell it too... um, 25/gal in eggshell + tint. Higher for more gloss.

Ace guy also like spraying the ceiling as best for ceiling, just not necessarily easiest.

The Paint store across the river sells BM Aquavelvet for $30 with neutral tint, $6-8/gal more for deep accent colors. Superspec was $21 and $25 for the Kitchen and bath. + $ for deep tints. Aquavelvet is a BM Regal line, right?

The other city hdwre store that has BM hasnt called me back, but they seemed really pricey on all products when I was there years ago, higher than Ace's for most everything.

Havent called SW yet. Think I'll go visit.

Later,

Bob

slickshift

Ah, I understand
Carry on then

Hmmm....I'm getting a much better picture on what you've got there
Although I discourage the practice, because it "yellows" and turns a sort of amber color, for some reason people love to make their trim "shiny" (for a while) by coating it with poly (a shiny paint takes the same labor, but I dunno, people get this thing in their heads)

I can't say for sure w/o seeing it, but yes, you could easily have that
The procedure you outlined would then be correct
It depends
It will only "smooth" so much, as with the top coat you will still leave brushmarks/stipple
But it's not a bad idea on trim that's closer to eye level or cabinets/doors
(we're talking a very light, quick, scuff w/220)
If your coverage with gloss is not so good, then don't do it
You'll see the "spaces" or "flashing" of the dull, sanded paint underneath the top coat
That would be good
I'd figure more like 300 though
Could be 250 easy if the surface is "thirsty"

Again, the Ace guy is right on
In as much as there is less chance of week popcorn falling (pulling) off if the paint is sprayed on, rather than rolled on
Unfortunately, week popcorn is common

Correct
Well, I can't comment on topline valspar from personal (professional) use
But it really seems that Ace Guy is up on his paint products and usage
If it were me painting your house, and Ace was that much closer and the guy was that knowledgeable, I'd probably give the stuff a shot

Also keep in mind that you are painting a whole house, and asking these stores if you can get a discount is not out of line
Don't do the "can I get a discount on this can and I'll be back for more" routine
But after discussing with the sales persons and determining you need X gallons of this, X gallons of that...total XX gallons
Then a little "If I buy it all at once here, can I get a discount?" couldn't hurt
They worst they will say is sorry, no
But if it's more than a few gallons, often you'll get into contractor pricing (not much discount, but hey every little bit helps)

sundog

The place I bought the Kilz from at $8 has topline Devoe (ICI) at $26. Have you ever used that one? I saw it on the pro forum, but I forget where or what was said.

They do NOT have a color computer. Ace guy said that could be a problem.

BTW, do you have a problem with dented metal buckets? The kid that loaded my truck put a dented one in, (big dent )I'd rather not get blasted popping the lid. I think I'll take it back and trade for 5 1-gals so I wont be as likely to get stuck with a huge open can.

My father is pushing for the sprayer, I said fine, I'll prep for spray, then we'll try the garage first. Everything is getting kilzed so maybe I'll try priming with it if it works out, maybe even topcoat the ceilings then roll the color coats.

I priced SW, even w/ SW on sale BM Regal is less than SW second-line. *shrug* They DID have the blue-bristle purdy brushes tho...Ive used other purdy brushes and they were a joy compared to the crappy brushes I'd used in high school, so I'm hoping these are even better from comments on the forum.

The $5/gal diff between Valspar and BM had bumped me to BM, esp with the inc coverage the ace guy (or whoever) mentioned, I had used 300 initially, 200 on popcorn. I'll look again at Valspar. (tho if I sell sooner than later, BM on the topcoats sounds nice.)
I had another question, but the Knob Creek just kicked in.

Next time.

Bob

joewho

I know you are asking slick, but I want to interject. On the trim, do a test wash. It may not be yellowed poly but cigar/cigarette smoke making it yellow..............................

slickshift

Yah, we can't really tell from here
Anyway you can double check that is good

I haven't used the Devoe

I think Papa Sundog just want to use a "cool" power tool
Lol
Good idea to try the garage first
If you get the knack you may want to do the rest
Prep the day before you rent
That way, if you are done spraying in 1/2 day, the rent will be cheaper

sundog

That's the plan! (prep beforehand) Not as much prep as it could be, windows, kitchen, baths, ceiling fans, elect. boxes. And the fireplace.


Um. Gas heat and a gas water heater in the garage. Pilot light issues there??? Nice vaporized Kilz orig. and 1-2-3 or guardz.

*hums* "someone will set the spark off, and we will all be blown away....--Theeeere's hurricanes in FLorida *whistles* They're starving in Spain...riots in S. Africa...and Texas needs rain..."

Saw a solvent to paint list on here somewhere, I'll nab it before Sat. (Priming day)

Thanks again!

Bob