Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Painting

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 09-19-2012, 10:04 AM   #1
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 4
Share |
Default

Painting over black semi gloss ?


So my bother panted his room black semi gloss no that he has moved out we have decided to move my daughter in that room but I need to get rid of that black semi gloss or go over it I want pastel purple and yellow ! I dont know what to do I keep hearing that I have to sand it ! Please help.


Last edited by Michelleerbe; 09-19-2012 at 07:25 PM.
Michelleerbe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 07:23 PM   #2
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 4
Default

Painting over black semi gloss ?


Really ive had 21 people view my post about.me asking how to pant over black semi gloss pant and no one could respond ! I thought that this was a chat room for that type of thing ! Thanks anyway ! Unbelievable !

Michelleerbe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 07:38 PM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 428
Default

Painting over black semi gloss ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelleerbe View Post
So my fiances bother panted his room black semi gloss no that he gas moved out we have decided to move my daughter in that room but I need to get rid of that black semi gloss or go over it I want pastel putple and yellow ! I dont know what to do I keep hearing that I have to sand it ! Please help.
Hey Michelleerbe...

um...yup, you really should sand it - and because it's black, you should probably prime it too (without priming, it's really gonna be difficult to get a pastel purple and yellow to hide). Keep this in mind - when sanding, you're not trying to remove the coating...just slightly abrade it. It really isn't that big of a project to sand. Not only will this allow for your next coat of prime or paint to adhere better, it'll also make your next coat hide better.

Take a stroll over to your local independent paint dealer and ask his/her advice on painting over black semi...they'll set you up with all the tools, products and advice you'll need to do this project with the least acceptable amount of time, money and energy. Good luck.
ric knows paint is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ric knows paint For This Useful Post:
Michelleerbe (09-24-2012)
Old 09-19-2012, 09:24 PM   #4
Member
 
Gymschu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Eastern Ohio (heart of Appalachia)
Posts: 2,630
Default

Painting over black semi gloss ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelleerbe View Post
Really ive had 21 people view my post about.me asking how to pant over black semi gloss pant and no one could respond ! I thought that this was a chat room for that type of thing ! Thanks anyway ! Unbelievable !
Take a deep breath, Michelle. Most of the pros on here are actually out working and sometimes we don't see all the new posts until later in the day. Ric knows his stuff. Sand the walls to scuff them up a bit. Use a pole sander or a sponge sander or whatever type of sander is handy for you to use. Wipe off the dust and prime with a quality BONDING primer.........something that will give your topcoats something to hold onto. You can get the primer tinted towards the color you want on the walls. This may save you from applying 4 or 5 coats to cover the walls. After letting the primer dry for a day or so you can apply 2 topcoats. It wouldn't hurt to wait 24 hours in between coats of paint.
Gymschu is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Gymschu For This Useful Post:
concretemasonry (09-19-2012), Michelleerbe (09-24-2012)
Old 09-20-2012, 04:58 AM   #5
paper hanger and painter
 
chrisn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Hagerstown MD
Posts: 6,638
Default

Painting over black semi gloss ?


and there you have it^^^ we painters actually have to work during the day( and in my case, nights also) to pay for the offspring's outrageous college education charges)
chrisn is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to chrisn For This Useful Post:
Gymschu (09-20-2012), Michelleerbe (09-24-2012)
Old 09-20-2012, 06:33 AM   #6
Member
 
angelatc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Linden, MI
Posts: 75
Default

Painting over black semi gloss ?


I just painted over dark purple, and we did exactly what Ric described. Don't let them fool you - it's a lot of work.
angelatc is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to angelatc For This Useful Post:
Gymschu (09-20-2012), Michelleerbe (09-24-2012)
Old 09-20-2012, 07:15 AM   #7
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: outside ocala fl
Posts: 3,151
Default

Painting over black semi gloss ?


Imo you don't need to sand, most good primers will work with no problems. SW prep rite will even stick to glass. Glidden makes a primer I think is called Gripper and it comes in gray i have used it a few times with reds and real dark and bright colors and it worked very well. But i think a big key here is to paint using a high quality paint, SW or Benny Moore something along those lines, the cheap ones won't cover as well. Just to be sure buy a quart of the primer and a sample of your final color try a spot and please let us know the results.
ToolSeeker is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ToolSeeker For This Useful Post:
Michelleerbe (09-24-2012)
Old 09-20-2012, 07:18 AM   #8
Member
 
Gymschu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Eastern Ohio (heart of Appalachia)
Posts: 2,630
Default

Painting over black semi gloss ?


Toolseeker, the sanding serves a two-fold purpose. Giving the primer something to bite onto.......which, like you have said, can be skipped although I like to play it safe and do the sanding, and secondly, sanding removes "boogers" from the wall. All the chunks, pieces of roller cover, etc. from previous paint jobs can be sanded off to make the wall look so much better.
Gymschu is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Gymschu For This Useful Post:
angelatc (09-24-2012), Michelleerbe (09-24-2012)
Old 09-20-2012, 07:51 AM   #9
Too Short? Cut it Again!
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,635
Default

Painting over black semi gloss ?


And Michelle, not to be preachy but this topic comes up fairly often. I explained how I painted over black semi-gloss trim and black eggshell walls just a few weeks ago. If you panic before we can get to you? The search engine works fairly well. Good luck.
user1007 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to user1007 For This Useful Post:
Gymschu (09-20-2012), Michelleerbe (09-24-2012)
Old 09-20-2012, 09:28 AM   #10
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 428
Default

Painting over black semi gloss ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ToolSeeker View Post
Imo you don't need to sand, most good primers will work with no problems. SW prep rite will even stick to glass. Glidden makes a primer I think is called Gripper and it comes in gray i have used it a few times with reds and real dark and bright colors and it worked very well. But i think a big key here is to paint using a high quality paint, SW or Benny Moore something along those lines, the cheap ones won't cover as well. Just to be sure buy a quart of the primer and a sample of your final color try a spot and please let us know the results.
Hiya TS...

This response is probably gonna sound more like a mixed signal than sage advice, so please accept my apologies in advance...

There are many products on the market like Gripper - BullseEye 123, Versa-Seal, XIM UMA, Prep-Rite, and on and on - all manufacturers (it seems) makes a similar acrylic bonding primer, designed to adhere to slick, glossy surfaces, with little surface prep other than making sure it's clean. Some even state right on their labels that the use of this product eliminates the need for sanding...and the truth is, I've used many of these products in that very same, sand-less manner that I adamantly & fervently preach against (you know the old adage "do as I say, not as I do...."). I'm not a painter, but I also know many, many painters have participated in this practice too.

It is true that these products can adhere very tightly to a slick, glossy surface - undermining the old paint axiom of "never paint over a shiny surface"...Some of these products may even adhere to glass and glazed tile. BUT, when making recommendations to homeowners, DIY-ers and those less experienced than professional painters, is that really the best advice? When it comes to putting things in print (or in other words, being legally accountable for statements made), most manufacturers will still recommend sanding slick, glossy surfaces before applying an acrylic bonding primer. In the even of a renovation project where an architect is involved, they also will emphasize sanding slick, glossy surfaces prior to painting in their specs regarding surface preparation.

Why the conflicting messages? It's kinda simple - In the event of failure, nobody wants the liability of repainting what should've been an uncomplicated, relatively simple prep and application. Failures, you say? Yes, they will occur periodically for a variety of reasons - and the very first question a manufacturer will ask, when determining the cause of failure, is "did you sand the surface?" (Trust me, this IS what I do). Here's the difference, as far as painters go...Typically, you have the experience to look at a job and determine what type and how much surface prep is needed. Most of the time, you'd be able to look at an existing finish and possibly determine if it requires sanding, or whether you could do without. You have the experience, ability and proper tools to apply a prime coat in a manner that will perform as expected and provide proper holdout for whatever finish you choose...

When a typical homeowner and/or DIY-er asks for the type of advice that Michelle has, do you figure she has that level of experience? Will she be able to determine if this black actually needs sanding or not? Do you suppose she'll have the experience and grasp of technique to ensure this "prep-eliminating" product will perform as expected? I don't (no offense, Michelle). Therefore, I will always recommend the proper prep guidelines as opposed to any corner cutting tricks of the trade (based on some manufacturers overly simplified suggestions of a no pain, no inconvenience, no big deal type, paint-in-your-Sunday-best-clothes, type of lure to their otherwise, fairly decent product).

Second to that, go back and read Gymschu's comments about the purpose of sanding. Sanding does more than just promote better adhesion. Sanding helps regulate the product will be applied at a more proper film thickness by not allowing the product to slide as much over a slick surface...by that same principle, sanding a previous coat will absolutely provide for better hiding of subsequent coats than painting/priming over a non-sanded, slick surface (and ALL end-users/consumers will measure the worth of a product by the way it covers) (unfortunately)...and, as Gymschu mentioned, sanding helps to not only eliminate surface irregularities for a better smoother finish, but to identify areas in need of add'l prep as well.

I'm not even going to go into the curing process of these bonding primers and the very critical time frame necessary for maximum adhesion...

I don't mean to attack your opinions, or question your experiences...My opinion is that when addressing the questions and concerns of those less experienced, we need to present the best procedures and advice to establish the best probability of a satisfactory outcome.

Last edited by ric knows paint; 09-20-2012 at 09:30 AM.
ric knows paint is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2012, 10:00 AM   #11
Member
 
ccarlisle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Posts: 1,889
Thumbs down

Painting over black semi gloss ?


Without mincing words here, I'll go right out and say the following:-

I admit to having been one of those twenty-odd people who looked at your post Michelleerbe, then passed right over it without either having read it entirely or much less thought about a reply to you. I tuned out about halfway through it. Probably just me, but careless spelling mistakes and punctuation goofs do that to my reading abilities...

Guess it's called 'respect'; the way I see it is you got far more respect in the answers from Ric knows paint and others than was warranted from your intial two posts. You got far more than you gave, so cut us some slack.
__________________
“The average American woman is about 25 pounds heavier than she was in 1960...Recognizing obesity as a disease will help change the way the medical community tackles this complex issue that affects approximately 1 in 3 Americans,”
ccarlisle is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ccarlisle For This Useful Post:
Gymschu (09-20-2012), Windows (09-26-2012)
Old 09-21-2012, 08:00 AM   #12
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: outside ocala fl
Posts: 3,151
Default

Painting over black semi gloss ?


No offense taken just a difference of opinion. But following your train of thought you should never use a second or third coat of paint because it won't stick to the first coat. I never said not to do prep work that is my fault for assuming that was a given. As for the sanding of shiny surfaces i believe that is mainly for things like polyurethane varnish extremely hard surfaces. paint should stick to paint, the reason i suggested the primer was to dull the sheen so it would take less coats. I am not telling anyone not to sand or do prep work but in my opinion in this case it was unnecessary to sand a whole room. Please believe me when I say I am a firm believer in the old adage that prep is 80% of a good paint job. And I think we both assumed these walls are smooth if we are wrong and they are textured (orange peel or knockdown) imagine the can of worms sanding would open. I would like to hear your further thoughts on this.
ToolSeeker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2012, 08:40 AM   #13
Too Short? Cut it Again!
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 9,635
Default

Painting over black semi gloss ?


While a high bond primer over semi-gloss SHOULD/MIGHT work, and the thought of scruffing up an entire room with sandpaper might sound daunting, it will really not take that long with a reasonably wide pole sander.

I can guarantee ABSOLUTELY it will take far less time than dealing with removing paint that failed to adhere, skim coating to even out surfaces, priming again, and painting.
user1007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2012, 09:52 AM   #14
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 428
Default

Painting over black semi gloss ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ToolSeeker View Post
No offense taken just a difference of opinion. But following your train of thought you should never use a second or third coat of paint because it won't stick to the first coat. I never said not to do prep work that is my fault for assuming that was a given. As for the sanding of shiny surfaces i believe that is mainly for things like polyurethane varnish extremely hard surfaces. paint should stick to paint, the reason i suggested the primer was to dull the sheen so it would take less coats. I am not telling anyone not to sand or do prep work but in my opinion in this case it was unnecessary to sand a whole room. Please believe me when I say I am a firm believer in the old adage that prep is 80% of a good paint job. And I think we both assumed these walls are smooth if we are wrong and they are textured (orange peel or knockdown) imagine the can of worms sanding would open. I would like to hear your further thoughts on this.
Good points...and I appreciate the debate. Again, let me say I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said or recommended - except when instructing a complete novice in the ways of best achieving a "problem-free" and satisfying paint experience.

That said, if your point about poly varnishes (extremely hard surfaces) is true (which it is), how then does that differ from acrylics that contain a polyurethane component? Or epoxy modification, a teflon element, new nano technologies, ceramic microspheres, or any of the other multitudes of components or modifications designed to make finish paints harder and more impermeable (less permeable?) to dirt, staining, burnishing etc.? If these altered resins "shed" dirt (household grime, handprints, etc.) by their impermeability, wouldn't they also repel a new application of paint? Unlike a poly varnish, you can't look at these finishes on a wall and determine what type of resin and/or modification is employed.

Your argument of "But following your train of thought you should never use a second or third coat of paint because it won't stick to the first coat" doesn't apply here as it disregards the dynamics of the coalescence process (acrylic/latex curing). Wall paints (flat, egg, satin, semi - whatever) typically are going to be second or third coated within a specific time frame (2 - 4 hours between coats...next day...next weekend) - most of your conventional wall paints won't finish curing for anywhere from 14 - 45 days - during this time of partial curing, that finish is sensitive to the coalescing solvents found in subsequent coats of the same finish. For lack of a better term, this sensitivity allows the solvents (water/glycol/petro) to "meld" the 2 applications into a more continual film, thus eliminating the need for sanding or special prep between coats. Once the film has cured completely (say, after 45 days), sanding is recommended before applying a new app.

Now, trust me as I say this, even I don't subscribe to everything I've just said. The truth is, and I've mentioned this is several previous posts, acrylics don't need penetration to adhere (unlike oil/alkyds) - although a "profiled" surface will produce better adhesion. Acrylics (especially those found in bonding primers) will adhere exceptionally well to slick surfaces, including semi-gloss finishes, high gloss finishes, and even poly gloss varnishes.

So why do I so adamantly and fervently insist on sanding? It's simple. Not only do these products adhere better on a profiled surface (which is argument enough by itself), these products adhere FASTER to a profiled surface than over a slick surface. When we discussed the curing time for an acrylic is between 14 & 45 days to reach maximum hardness and impermeability, it is also true regarding adhesion. Acrylic paints don't max out their almost phenomenal adhesive strength until that resin has fully cured. Before curing, they are soft, permeable and easily scratched from a slick surface (not as much from a profiled surface).

Since I don't know Michelle's level of experience (and apparently never will since she's no longer speaking to us), I will assume she's a complete novice without knowledge, or even an understanding, of basic painting principles...and the last thing a novice, who asked for up-front advice, wants to be instructed on is how to repair a freshly painted wall that has been scratched, causing a loss of adhesion (which can be pulled from the black semi-gloss surface in rubbery strips) - only to hear that sanding may have prevented this.
ric knows paint is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2012, 11:01 AM   #15
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: outside ocala fl
Posts: 3,151
Default

Painting over black semi gloss ?


If I agreed to all that whice I really don't that means on a textured wall you would have to sand totally down to the drywall because no way could you sand the spaces around the texture. As far as failure neither process is guaranteed 100%. She could sand not clean the wall quite well enough and have paint failure, she could wash the wall paint before quite dry paint failure, ect. All I was trying to do was give her another easier option I would also tell my family members the same thing, try it in a place with a qt of primer and a $4 sample of paint. Investment less than $10. Boy we did make her mad didn't we?

ToolSeeker is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gloss and opinions on colors. Michaelpro Painting 5 04-04-2012 07:18 PM
Double switch wiring rockclimber Electrical 18 03-18-2012 10:13 PM
painting high gloss on white laminate oldhouse49 Painting 9 02-06-2012 08:09 PM
Painting a black cultured marble countertop as a temporary fix? koconnor214 Kitchen & Bath Remodeling 5 12-14-2011 09:08 PM
semi gloss enamel vs eggshell enamel NoExperience Painting 18 03-05-2009 04:57 AM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.