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Old 03-06-2011, 12:53 PM   #16
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Painting over Behr kitchen cabinet paint


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So he refunded you and you continued using the now "free" product? Awesome.

It tints just fine with gennex colorants...I hope that's what they use

The technology of mixing oil/water isn't new. In fact Moorgard/glo/life as been a hybrid product for over 15 years.

Embrace the new technology, with VOC laws becoming stricter, its only a matter of time before oil products as we know them will be obsolete.
nc

nice chatting with you. although using the "free" product was indeed awesome, as it turned out the entire batch was the wrong colour. (yes, the story just gets better)...... we had asked for "Almost Black"...a colour in Moores deck....what we got instead was a dark purple. When the job was entirely done the customers said..."what up with this purple...i thought we were getting Almost Black"...sure enough they were right. We re-did the entire job for free and I initially asked for $2500 from the store owner since it was his staff that let the mistint out the door but backed off when i was man enough to realize that I should have made sure of the colour myself.

Maybe Advance is good for some things but for cabinets we're sticking to lacquer from now on. About oil being obsolete, my understanding is thats not going to be the case for the painting contractor. For Mrs Jones coming in off the street, yes, but all our reps have said to relax and that a few select oil products will *always* be available to the paint contractor

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Old 03-06-2011, 01:10 PM   #17
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Old 03-06-2011, 01:25 PM   #18
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I'd bet dollars to doughnuts the tint was the issue and not the product.
nc

there were two issues for me. the paint never seemed to cure enough in preparedness for the second spray application....even after 30 hrs dry time (thats why i got my refund).

the mintint was another issue which had nothing to do with us getting a refund....unless you're suggesting that the colourants themselves had something to do with the inability of the product to cure in a timely fashion

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Old 03-06-2011, 05:11 PM   #19
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hi mathew

not always right but never in doubt eh. i like your confidence but you have it reversed. oil over latex, cool, latex over oil, not cool... cheers

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Sorry, but I had it right. Oil will peel latex right off the wall.
There are literally tens of thousands of older homes out there that originally were painted with oil that now have latex paint over them. Ask at the paint store, they will tell you. Latex over oil still needs a primer.

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Old 03-06-2011, 06:00 PM   #20
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Sorry, but I had it right. Oil will peel latex right off the wall.
There are literally tens of thousands of older homes out there that originally were painted with oil that now have latex paint over them. Ask at the paint store, they will tell you. Latex over oil still needs a primer.
Matt

You initially said that cabinets had latex on them so oil is out of the question. Thats not true, and I dont have to "ask at the paint store" when I learned it 30 yrs ago. You can quite easily paint oil over latex with no issues whatsoever. As for oil peeling latex off the wall, that seems quite absurd as we do it all the time, and again, no issues. At least we agree that latex over oil need a primer....cheers.

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Old 03-06-2011, 07:01 PM   #21
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As long as surfaces are properly prepared, sanded well and clean, oil will stick to latex and latex will stick to oil. There is no chemical reaction that causes one to reject the other. Sanding has been defined down to "scuff" from a proper and thorough hand sanding. In fact, the trend in painting today is no sanding. Latex and oil will both brittle over time and be prone to chipping and peeling, as they lose more vehicle over the long term. Proper refinishing on a regular schedule will keep surfaces from becoming brittle. Sanding does two things, it gives tooth to the existing finish for the new finish to bite and it removes the surface layer of the old film, which is the most degraded and oxidized part. I do a thorough hand sanding on all trim surfaces, most all wall surfaces, and a good bit of all ceilings. I switch finishes from latex to oil and oil to latex with no primer, have been for years, and have had no problems. And, I've been around long enough to realize any problems. I've repainted things where I know I made the switch with no peeling issues. However, I do use and recommend a bonding primer for special cases like cabinetry, and previously stained or clear coat finishes. I ask a lot of questions everywhere I go, and I've asked a lot of people who know more than I about the fundamentals of paint if I'm okay with that. As long as you're sanding the way you say, they say, you're fine. Primers and underbodys are good for putting a new stable surface on an excessively old, brittle, or otherwise degraded surface prior to putting new finish on them. Customers are allowing too much time between repaints and painters are not doing proper prep.Prep is the most important phase in painting, and sanding is the key to the integrity of the job.
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Old 03-06-2011, 07:49 PM   #22
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As long as surfaces are properly prepared, sanded well and clean, oil will stick to latex and latex will stick to oil. There is no chemical reaction that causes one to reject the other.
You may think so jsheridon but the ovewhelming evidence is against you. I wish you were right, I really really do beause I would love to just sand and be done with it.....but

painting latex over oil, regardless of how much you sand is **never** recommended. Even with latex DTM (direct to metal) where they, (the retailers, manufacturers etc) say "just give er a good sand and have at er"...this specially formulated paint fails miserably. you have to let it cure for a couple of months and even then it fails the thumb nail scratch test (and people are not going to be using those doors for two months?)

Painting latex over oil with just vigorous sanding is a suicide mission; I thought every painting contractor knew that.



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Old 03-06-2011, 07:58 PM   #23
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Very interesting discussion here. This is why I have a top pro painter that I can call in for the tough jobs.

There is a lot to know about painting--especially when the surfaces are dis-similar.-Mike--
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Old 03-06-2011, 08:20 PM   #24
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You may think so jsheridon but the ovewhelming evidence is against you.
Painting latex over oil, regardless of how much you sand is **never** recommended. Even with latex DTM (direct to metal) where they, (the reatailers, manufacturers etc) say "just give er a good sand and have at er"...this specially formulated paint fails miserably.

Painting latex over oil with just sanding is a suicide mission; I thought everyone knew that.



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Don't think I ever remember reading that warning on the back of any cans, and I pretty much read all new labels. I find it hard to believe that a manufacturer, with liablility on the line, would tell you to skip such a vital step that would cause their product to fail if they knew otherwise. In fact, I don't think I've heard or seen that in any product literature or TDS. They specify every substrate and previous finish condition but never anything about switching from oil to latex. Maybe it's just so innate and well known that mentioning it is a waste of time, but warning you against ingesting it isn't. Since I've never had a problem with it and haven't had any paint companies tell me so, I'll continue to chalk it up to an old wives tale and just sand as we're supposed to. Human error is the single largest contributor to paint failure.
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Old 03-06-2011, 11:51 PM   #25
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It's not a chemical reaction. It's that the latex is much more flexible surface and will expand and contract at a much higher rate loosening up either the oil on top of it or causing it to break it's bond with the surface below it. I highly doubt you are doing it all the time. There are plenty of horror stories on the internet of people putting oil over latex and seeing their paint come right off. Also, oil based paint with their much smaller molecules will easily pass through latex paint which is a porous breathable finish.

And yes, ask at the paint store because they hear about and give advice on 50+ jobs a day where as most painting crews do around 3 or fewer a week.
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Old 03-07-2011, 12:25 AM   #26
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Expansion and contraction are temp related issues, which is no concern interior. The daily swings in temp find exterior surfaces expanding and contracting on a daily continual basis. Freezing overnight and warming in the day sun in the winter and baking in the sun to cool down at night in the summer. The temp in the desert can swing below freezing to over 100 degrees in a 24 hour period. Between you Matt with the oil over latex and 604 with latex over oil, I'm having a tough time keeping the counter arguments straight. I'll tell you what, both of you guys find me a white paper or some other formal literature from a paint authority that supports your argument and I'll reconsider and admit I'm wrong. Not saying there isn't one, but I have yet to find it. All I hear to support your argument is anecdotal evidence. BTW, I never said I do it all the time, but, as oil becomes more politically incorrect, I am slowly switching my oil regulars to latex. Is that your peev or 604's, I'm not sure?
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Old 03-07-2011, 01:12 AM   #27
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... you have it reversed. oil over latex, cool, latex over oil, not cool... cheers
Your assertion is incorrect sir. You can paint latex over oil but not oil over latex.

Oil is brittle, while latex is flexible. Therefore - hard over soft - no good.

As for putting a latex over oil without priming - it can be done, just depends on the product you're using. If you're using cheap product, then priming and aggressive sanding become extremely important. If you're using the right quality products, a scuff sand is often enough. If you're using behr, prime 5 times and sand with 20 grit using a belt sander first - the paint should stick after that.

OP -

Your best bet for your cabinets, as already mentioned, is a thorough cleaning and sanding, tack cloth the dust off, and paint with Insl-x cabinet coat.

Since your cabinets have already been painted, a latex primer would work just fine under your topcoats. Zinsser bulls-eye water based will work.

I've used cabinet coat on several cabinet repaints and had nothing but success with it. You can purchase it from Benjamin Moore or General Paint (depending on your location).

The key to a successful cabinet job is proper prep. Clean clean clean and sand sand sand.

Last edited by Rcon; 03-07-2011 at 01:16 AM.
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Old 03-07-2011, 10:13 AM   #28
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Expansion and contraction are temp related issues, which is no concern interior. The daily swings in temp find exterior surfaces expanding and contracting on a daily continual basis. Freezing overnight and warming in the day sun in the winter and baking in the sun to cool down at night in the summer. The temp in the desert can swing below freezing to over 100 degrees in a 24 hour period. Between you Matt with the oil over latex and 604 with latex over oil, I'm having a tough time keeping the counter arguments straight. I'll tell you what, both of you guys find me a white paper or some other formal literature from a paint authority that supports your argument and I'll reconsider and admit I'm wrong. Not saying there isn't one, but I have yet to find it. All I hear to support your argument is anecdotal evidence. BTW, I never said I do it all the time, but, as oil becomes more politically incorrect, I am slowly switching my oil regulars to latex. Is that your peev or 604's, I'm not sure?
While temperature extremes may not be as bad interior, it is still there as well as humidity. They still have to leave gaps around the edges on interior hardwood floors for expansion. You still will have cold and hot walls during the seasons. What if the heat or AC fails?
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Old 03-07-2011, 10:40 AM   #29
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If you're using behr, prime 5 times and sand with 20 grit using a belt sander first - the paint should stick after that.
I was going to comment, but I guess you can probably hear me laughing from there.....

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Old 03-07-2011, 05:05 PM   #30
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Expansion and contraction are temp related issues, which is no concern interior. The daily swings in temp find exterior surfaces expanding and contracting on a daily continual basis. Freezing overnight and warming in the day sun in the winter and baking in the sun to cool down at night in the summer. The temp in the desert can swing below freezing to over 100 degrees in a 24 hour period. Between you Matt with the oil over latex and 604 with latex over oil, I'm having a tough time keeping the counter arguments straight. I'll tell you what, both of you guys find me a white paper or some other formal literature from a paint authority that supports your argument and I'll reconsider and admit I'm wrong. Not saying there isn't one, but I have yet to find it. All I hear to support your argument is anecdotal evidence. BTW, I never said I do it all the time, but, as oil becomes more politically incorrect, I am slowly switching my oil regulars to latex. Is that your peev or 604's, I'm not sure?
I'm with you there.

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