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Ex painter 11-21-2011 10:36 AM

Painting old chalky walls.
 
Why is emulsa-bond only used with exterior paints?

Brushjockey 11-21-2011 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ex painter (Post 776063)
Why is emulsa-bond only used with exterior paints?

I make an interior white wash with it..
But your title q and this are 2 different subjects.
I would use Gardz or even Peel Stop on interior surfaces- but you also haven't said what those surfaces are...

ric knows paint 11-22-2011 06:19 PM

Hiya Ex...

Flood makes great product additives and they generally work as advertised... and the Flood Company provides really well done informative and point-of-sale brochures explaining the features and benefits of their kind of unique products.

Unfortunately, sometimes they don't do a great job with explaining their product's limitations such as "why is EB for exterior use only?" ...I can only speculate, but if I remember correctly, EB used to be recommended for interior and exterior use - for interior as a masonry conditioner for aged plaster walls.

Since plaster has become a much smaller surface in the painting environment, I believe the new designation of "exterior only" has to do with one of the downsides of alkyd/oil modification to latex products...while EB (alkyd/oil modification) does bind in dust and chalk that most latexes are unable to do, and also provides for better penetration into a porous substrate (also resulting in better adhesion), one of the downsides of alkyd modification (amongst other things) is alkyd/oil resins provide food source for mold, mildew and algae.

I believe the reason it's not recommended for interior use is that a relatively high level of mildewcides have probably been incorporated into the additive to offset this particular dis-benefit of alkyd modification - and, obviously, since mildewcides have come under such close scrutiny from EPA and other watchdog organizations, it's possible that Flood is pro-actively limiting their liability by claiming the product to be exterior use only...

I dunno for certain, but it makes sense to me - although I could be dead wrong.

PS - I also agree with BrushJockey, Peel Stop is a great product and is recommended for interior (and exterior) use.

chrisn 11-23-2011 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ric knows paint (Post 777117)
Hiya Ex...

Flood makes great product additives and they generally work as advertised... and the Flood Company provides really well done informative and point-of-sale brochures explaining the features and benefits of their kind of unique products. Unfortunately, sometimes they don't do a great job with explaining their product's limitations such as "why is EB for exterior use only?" ...I can only speculate, but if I remember correctly, EB used to be recommended for interior and exterior use - for interior as a masonry conditioner for aged plaster walls. Since plaster has become a much smaller surface in the painting environment, I believe the new designation of "exterior only" has to do with one of the downsides of alkyd/oil modification to latex products...while EB (alkyd/oil modification) does bind in dust and chalk that most latexes are unable to do, and also provides for better penetration into a porous substrate (also resulting in better adhesion), one of the downsides of alkyd modification (amongst other things) is alkyd/oil resins provide food source for mold, mildew and algae. I believe the reason it's not recommended for interior use is that a relatively high level of mildewcides have probably been incorporated into the additive to offset this particular dis-benefit of alkyd modification - and, obviously, since mildewcides have come under such close scrutiny from EPA and other watchdog organizations, it's possible that Flood is pro-actively limiting their liability by claiming the product to be exterior use only...

I dunno for certain, but it makes sense to me - although I could be dead wrong.

PS - I also agree with BrushJockey, Peel Stop is a great product and is recommended for interior (and exterior) use.

Hate that feeling:yes:

jsheridan 11-23-2011 06:52 AM

I was told the same thing Ric as the reasoning for never using exterior paints and stains interior, the mildewcide. But I was also told that unless you're planning to lick the surfaces you'll be okay, same as with lead. Now that eliminating interior mold is all the rage, most paints are claiming mildew resistance, which means mildewcide. You tell me.

ric knows paint 11-23-2011 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsheridan (Post 777398)
I was told the same thing Ric as the reasoning for never using exterior paints and stains interior, the mildewcide. But I was also told that unless you're planning to lick the surfaces you'll be okay, same as with lead. Now that eliminating interior mold is all the rage, most paints are claiming mildew resistance, which means mildewcide. You tell me.

There are several different types of mildewcides available to manufacturers, each with a different scrutiny level from consumer safety groups, effectiveness and costs...Many of the old "Kitchen & Bath" (acrylic) Enamels were simply a conventional latex satin or semi-gloss product that contained an exterior paint's level of mildewcide...Mildewcides are poison that kills plant life. Since poisons are pretty closely monitored and regulated within our industry, some manufacturers are now using mildew-stats instead for interior-use products (some continue to use mildewcides and some use combinations of "cides" and "stats"). Mildew-stats are NOT poison and they don't kill anything. They simply render a surface un-inhabitable to mildew (mold & algae). In other words, airborne mildew spores cannot attach themselves to, and colonize, on surfaces containing mildew-stats.

Now, the caveat to all this is your room still contains all the airborne spores it did before - now these spores just need something other than the paint to affix to and inhabit. That's why, when you treat a problem wall or room with a paint containing mildewstats, mildew may, all of a sudden, show up on surfaces it never had before (lampshades, furniture, books, etc)...

I'm also not 100% sure that mildewstats can be successfully incorporated into oil/alkyd containing products - or how effective they are in exterior-use applications. Some of the early offerings were also rendered, at least temporarily, ineffective if the surface was cleaned with a caustic solution (common detergents), I don't know if that's still a true statement either.

Will22 11-23-2011 09:34 AM

Unfortunately, sometimes they don't do a great job with explaining their product's limitations such as "why is EB for exterior use only?"

The reason that you don't utilize exterior paints inside is that they have more flexibility than interior paints, as they are formulated to accomodate exterior conditions. Because of this, they will not perform the same. They also contain mildewcides which leach out of the paint product during the life of the coating.

The mildewcide levels in paint have to be compliant with EPA registration and labeling requirements, not by consumer safety groups. Interior paints contain biocides to prevent mold growth on the surface of the paint film; these biocides also serve as in-can preservatives. Interior paints have different mildewcide content from exterior paints. As Ric says, the content of biocides and mildewcides in paint may be determined by cost/quality of the product formulation.

Incidentally, Emulsa Bond does contain mildewcide.

ric knows paint 11-23-2011 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will22 (Post 777458)
Unfortunately, sometimes they don't do a great job with explaining their product's limitations such as "why is EB for exterior use only?"

The reason that you don't utilize exterior paints inside is that they have more flexibility than interior paints, as they are formulated to accomodate exterior conditions. Because of this, they will not perform the same. They also contain mildewcides which leach out of the paint product during the life of the coating.

The mildewcide levels in paint have to be compliant with EPA registration and labeling requirements, not by consumer safety groups. Interior paints contain biocides to prevent mold growth on the surface of the paint film; these biocides also serve as in-can preservatives. Interior paints have different mildewcide content from exterior paints. As Ric says, the content of biocides and mildewcides in paint may be determined by cost/quality of the product formulation.

Incidentally, Emulsa Bond does contain mildewcide.

Hiya Will...

At the risk of sounding argumentative and petty, the original question wasn't why you don't use exterior paints inside, but why is EB recommended for exterior use only? ...and your comments regarding the use of exterior paints inside aren't completely un-true, but not entirely complete either. Aside from the mildewcide concern (but, as explained earlier, there are many types of mildewcides available to manufacturers), exterior paints (acrylics) will work fine inside - the characteristics that make 'em perform outside can also grant certain advantages to difficult interior applications as well (think basements and high moisture areas). The acrylic resins used in better quality interior products aren't all that dissimilar from their exterior counter-parts. Matter-o-fact, many manufacturers' tint bases (especially the colored bases) are the same product both in interior and exterior products - just packaged in different labels (and often times with different price points as well). That's not to say there aren't compositional differences between interior and exterior products, however the flexibility between an Int and Ext product are pretty similar...Some of the other differences are in sheen designation (there are no true flat exterior paints), pigment loads (resin to pigment ratios), pigment types - while TiO2 is common in both, Zinc is a common pigment used primarily in exterior products as a natural mildew deterrent, a whitening agent (reduces the effect of yellowing of other white pigments) and for it's stain-blocking abilities (tannin stains)...and, as already mentioned, mildewcides are often times different in exterior products, but other additives in exteriors may be freeze-thaw stabilizers, plasticizers, coalescence aids (employed in low temp coatings), etc. that may not be as necessary, and would do nothing more than drive up the cost of interior coatings.

And, of course it's true that mildewcides are regulated by the EPA and manufacturers that employ these mildewcides must be compliant with their regulations, but from a manufacturer's perspective, you can NEVER, EVER ignore the impact of such consumer protection agencies as the Consumer Products Safety Commission or the American Council on Science and Health when determining how to take a particular product to market.

...sometimes I tend to "split hairs" a bit when discussing such topics - I really don't mean to be argumentative. Now you see why I'm not invited to very many parties...(sigh)...

jsheridan 11-23-2011 03:06 PM

That's okay Ric, I don't get many invites to parties either. Politics are my other passion, and I'm very passionate at this time.
Thanks for all your educational contributions.
Joe

ric knows paint 11-23-2011 05:16 PM

Joe

Thank you for the kind words.

...and it's good to be passionate about politics. I am as well and believe that every responsible and concerned citizen should be equally passionate about politics - I think it's un-fortunate, and sad, that in today's social and economic climate, healthy debate cannot seem to take place between opposing, but equally passionate, viewpoints without the name-calling and vitriol, to work towards a resolve of the complex difficulties we face as a nation today...
(see that? now you got me on a soapbox again).

Ric

chrisn 11-23-2011 05:42 PM

You two guys can debate politics till the cows come home. For me, it is a no debate topic period..... I have never, ever, in my 58 years been involved or been around anyone that is passionate about politics have a reasonable discussion with the opposing party.
Sorry to get off topic; and thank you both for you're intellectual insight.

Will22 11-30-2011 03:05 PM

No offense taken, Ric. Emulsa Bond does contain an exterior grade of mildewcide. The purpose of this is because EB serves as an additive to enhance adhesion, and will not contribute mildew growth. EB has about 350 grams per liter in VOC's.

Although consumer groups are very good advocates for the general public, mildewcide content is licensed through EPA. Sorry I was not complete, but I was attempting to be succinct.


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