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Paint and Primer in One? Some Insight

12K views 66 replies 16 participants last post by  Will22 
#1 · (Edited)
Hey Folks
I managed to secure access to an online article that gives some authoritative insight on the issue. It's an excellent article, and Brushjockey will be pleased that it supports his assertion that primers are problem solvers. Though the pros know the value and necessity of primer, less knowledgable HO's and Diy'ers assume that primers are primers and any will do. Not so.
The permission to have this article available to us is generously provided by Paint and Decorating Retailers Magazine. The article is available to members/subscibers only, so we owe them thanks for giving Diychatroom members free access to help us understand this issue. Thanks to Diane Capuano, executive editor and author of the article. Please support them.

Go to my blog to find the link.
 
#3 ·
Good score JS!
Good to have a little industry back up to what us yucks in the field say.
This should be made a sticky.
I know you are also driving some hits to your site- don't want a direct link here?

The only thing that the article says the all in one can do is go over previously painted walls. Doesn't even say anything about bare rock!
Then goes on to talk about 50 primers. LOL

One thing I take exception to:

They say this
Primers’ ability to offer better hide,
especially over dark colors, is just one of
the things that they do better than paint,

Right after saying this
Paints are pigment-rich, allowing
for color acceptance and retention and
provide a durable finish.”

Fact: Paints hide better.

Other than that- right on.
 
#4 ·
They say this
Primers’ ability to offer better hide,
especially over dark colors, is just one of
the things that they do better than paint,
Right after saying this
Paints are pigment-rich, allowing
for color acceptance and retention and
provide a durable finish.”
Fact: Paints hide better.

Other than that- right on.
I agree with you on that.
 
#16 ·
Most premium paints (regardless of the brand) are considered self priming, at least on certain surfaces. This still involves a minimum of a two coat application, if not three. Primers do not have the same physical characteristics as paints, although they may share some of the same ingredients. I am personally an advocate of using a primer for bonding or stain killing purposes for some substrates. The Behr commercials annoy me because they imply that one coat takes care of everything. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
 
#17 ·
Most premium paints (regardless of the brand) are considered self priming, at least on certain surfaces. This still involves a minimum of a two coat application, if not three. Primers do not have the same physical characteristics as paints, although they may share some of the same ingredients. I am personally an advocate of using a primer for bonding or stain killing purposes for some substrates. The Behr commercials annoy me because they imply that one coat takes care of everything. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
:thumbsup:
 
#23 · (Edited)
Back again folks with an update on my quest regarding paint and primer in one.That quest is twofold, not to disparage it, but to educate the consumer about what primer is and does, and try to find out the truth behind the claims by the manufacturers, the list of which is growing. To the first aim, I've published an article titled Paint vs Primer, which I believe is educational for those think paint is paint and primer is primer, and is consistent with what we try to advance here. The second is an effort to get the paint companies to become involved with the forum and help us understand their products and why/how their claims their paint and primers in one claims are valid. I've extended the invitation to reps from Behr and BM. The invite to BM is fresh, but the invite to Behr is stale and to date hasn't been accepted. That doesn't comfort me. I think that with the explosion of online marketing and knowledge advancement, that not participating in forums like this is a lost opportunity. Look at the bashing that Behr has taken, and there is no one here to defend them. I think they could add knowledge and create a more lively environment.
I was leery about doing self promotion here with the link to my article, but screw it. I don't make money off of the traffic generated. I spend a lot of time here helping others and trying to add to the fourm, all for free, so if I get a little recognition/promotion out of some of those efforts, so be it. Thanks. Merry Christmas! If you're not Christian, just say thanks and take it as wish for happiness.
 
#24 ·
Back again folks with an update on my quest regarding paint and primer in one.That quest is twofold, not to disparage it, but to educate the consumer about what primer is and does, and try to find out the truth behind the claims by the manufacturers, the list of which is growing. To the first aim, I've published an article titled Paint vs Primer, which I believe is educational for those think paint is paint and primer is primer, and is consistent with what we try to advance here. The second is an effort to get the paint companies to become involved with the forum and help us understand their products and why/how their claims their paint and primers in one claims are valid. I've extended the invitation to reps from Behr and BM. The invite to BM is fresh, but the invite to Behr is stale and to date hasn't been accepted. That doesn't comfort me. I think that with the explosion of online marketing and knowldege advancement, that not participating in forums like this is a lost opportunity. Look at the bashing that Behr has taken, and there is no one here to defend them:whistling2:. I think they could add knowledge and create a more lively environment.
I was leery about doing self promotion here with the link to my article, but screw it. I don't make money off of the traffic generated. I spend a lot of time here helping others and trying to add to the fourm, all for free, so if I get a little recognition/promotion out of some of those efforts, so be it. Thanks. Merry Christmas! If you're not Christian, just say thanks and take it as wish for happiness.

Dont hold your'e breath. I have my doubts BM will respond either
 
#41 ·
This subject is totally confusing- partially because we are in the middle of a major change in all paint technologies.
As we've discussed here many times - when you think primer- think problem solver.
And to know which problem solver you need, you need to know what the problem is that you are solving.
One of the most basic , and somewhat easy to solve is dissimilar porosity- ie- mud/sheetrock/previously painted.
This will be where an all in wonder will usually work. But it will still take 2- 3 coats to get it to be even- so the first coat is acting like a primer.
In many cases, even though that will work, a real primer will do it better/faster/cheaper.
 
#5 ·
In a nutshell primers need a certain percentage of this and that ingedient to perform as a primer. Paints need certain percentage of other ingredients to perform as topcoats. Mixing them together dilutes the required percentages making them poor performers in both categories.
 
#11 ·
OK, now I remember. I was NOT mocking:censored:

Good article, except for what Brush already caught.
Easy now.
The article is important in two ways. As Brush said, it gives us something official to back up what us "yucks" say. And, we have a place to send them to learn about the various functions that primers serve.
 
#12 ·
You know, once - just once - I'd like to see a more 'technical' review to what we all are talking about here (ie: about the continuum of paints and primers) and what the article by Joe also demonstrates...for once I'd like to see almost, what? a Consumers Report done on a whole list of such products, ranging from an 'ordinary' paint to an 'ordinary' primer, including all those specailty paints and specialty primers the article describes...the capability is there. The technical aspects are well known to do that comparison yet we get nothing more that a list of products available.

'Cause here's what I know: "paints" - on the one end - and "primers" on the other, represent two opposite ends of a continuous scale of formulations derived from almost identical ingredients: resins, carriers, pigments, fillers and other minor ingredients. One the one end, a paint has the almost the same ingredients as the primers on the other end, only the proportions, qualities of each type of ingredient actually change...

That's being simplistic I know, as there are years and years of research and billions of research $ that have been spent in the paint industry to find that magical difference between different raw materials to give Company X that marketing difference between their and somebody else's product. But that isn't happening...so IMO there's nothing much new under the sun here. It's a continuous line of products ranging from a pure "paint" on the one end to the pure "primer" on the other. Same ingredients, different ratios, more or less.

That explains why primer+paint in one is just marketiing hype, because nothing technically can account for it. No magic resin, no magic filler, no magic pigment that can account for one product for doing two jobs at once. The pro painter recognizes that, the homeowner doesn't....

Sure there are real exceptions like shellac primers and 100% acrylic paints; but in 40 years, there's not much else...I don't think, in any case. It's still a set of challenges that has to be met by chemical formulations with a given set of ingredients. TiO2 is TiO2 - pretty well. Organic pigments are organic pigments, acrylates are acrylates, and DEA is still an amine. Thickening can be done in a variety of ways - yet to accomplish the thickening of an expensive thickener is about the same as thickening with a cheaper ingredient...the average DIYer won't know anyway.

So there's marketing spin put on the whole range; "My product does this, my product does that..." Yet nothing or no-one can really say: "Yes your product does this but this product does that same thing better". And even then, both products could easily coexist in a saturated market...

So where does this lead us? Well, nowhere really. We are reminded of the marketing hype involved in the paint industry, that's all. This list is useful, for sure but there's isn't very much going all when all is said and done.

The only remaining question is how much are we really paying for this marketing hype? It's got to be $10-$20 per gallon, I bet. I alluded in a previous post to the fact that Behr paint is now on sale at under $20 a gallon for their interior latex. Not the Primer+Paint all in one; and I'll bet you it's the same product - only different packaging.
 
#15 ·
I reported in another thread that I did a sample test of Duration exterior on a prepped, but unprimed, section of cornice. As it happened, two to three weeks went by between the first and second coats. When I got back to do the final coat, there were some areas of discoloration haze where, maybe tannin, there was bleed through. I don't know if the second coat will hold that back. Does anyone with Duration experience know if it will? I know there are a lot of pros out there who run Duration as a primer/paint. I'm not a convert, just doing a test. The rest of the job was primed with BM Penetrating Oil primer.
 
#37 ·
I was just reading through this whole thread. Came across your test with Duration. I use Duration a lot, but always prime as needed. You can't just apply Duration to raw substrate, I believe it even says on the can that some substartes need priminig with a primer. If the substrate is bare, especially cedar you would need to prime with the appropriate primer before applying duration. I've never had any problems with interior-exterior duration, but I do prime bare substrates first as you should. My SW rep even told me when Duration exterior first came out that you need to prime bare substrates.
 
#25 ·
This is a LOT like the "Shampoo & Conditioner"...IN ONE marketing!

We've always HUMOROUSLY asked customers, if they inquire, "How does the primer in the paint...know how to get to the wall FIRST?!?!?!
* They're kinda stumped by that, then they smile!

There's a LOT of ways to advertise a paint as "P & P" in one.
* Reformulated bases can say that if they're 100% Acrylic....WHICH MOST DECENT PAINTS ARE ANYWAY!!!
* Some, like ACE's new "Clark + Kensington" P&P, use a new Ceramic-Microsphere main resin. There are already companies doing this obviously.
* BUT....it's not actually a PRIMER...according to "normal" definitions of primers.
* It's just an improved PAINT-RESIN, which forms a slightly tighter/denser film... >>> THAT ACTS LIKE A PRIMER <<<.
* In that respect, it can be "called" P&P-in-one.
* ACE DOES at least state on the label, instances where SEPARATE PRIMING IS NEEDED.
* Paints like these MAY do better on somewhat porous surfaces, than previous versions (of the same paint-line) did just a couple years ago. Therefore....they have kind of a "Priming EFFECT", without being an actual separate "Primer".

>>> Are the lines/marketing blurry and confusing nowadays...HELL YES!!!
This is one Industry development I wish never would've happened.
BUT...like cars...ya have to keep tweaking the same old thing!!!

Next thing ya know...Cake-mixes will come out with "CAKE AND FROSTING IN ONE"!!!:laughing::laughing::laughing::whistling2:
OR..."Bread & Butter in ONE"...OR..."Turkey & Dressing in ONE"...OR....
....OK I'll stop now....:jester::sneaky2:

Faron
 
#27 ·
is someone implying that we have our CAKE and EAT it too!?

i thought this was interesting... if what i'm seeing in these tests are real, pretty impressive!

BEHR premimum plus ULTRA

http://www.jackpauhl.com/2010/04/behr-premium-plus-ultra-eggshell/


but even as a DIY, not a pro, i still see the value in putting down a Primer!



james
Thanks James, I read the whole review. Jack has a very scientific approach, and what he's found is compelling. It's basically the same results I achieved using ultra over bare drywall, the coverage was perfect (deep dark green) after one and the finish was very rich looking. My only concern with it is, does it bond? Jack didn't address that. I would suggest that all, even the Doubty Thomas', read Jack's review. Thanks for the contribution.
Joe
 
#28 ·
Jack does good research and reviews and i strongly urge anyone wanting to go deeper to page through his site.
But be aware- he is very specific about what products and tools work best where. He will switch from one thing to the next to maximize anythings strong points.
So if your looking for a one answer to all things, Jack is not going to ever say that. His point of view is always maximum production.
 
#31 · (Edited)
Thanks BJ, the site is real happy with it. It's actually making some rounds in different paint cos, how far I don't know. But people from Behr have recieved it, the pro desk manager at HD is forwarding it to his paint counter people and his glidden rep. And it's gone to numerous BM people store level and above. I was picking the brain of a BM sales rep at a dealer Christmas luncheon and followed it up with an email, including an invite to the forum. I told him it's a tough crowd here when it comes to paint and primer in one, which they're all on board with now. He stated unequivocally that you can put Aura over bare drywall with no problem. I said I'm not buying it until I see some proof, testing, samples, etc. So far, mad scientist Jack Pauhl is the only evidence I've seen, and that still doesn't tell me it's healthy.
I have a link to this thread at the ready. I'm going to try building a link library of the more valuable threads by category. We'll see, I'm gonna do a lot of things. :laughing:
 
#32 ·
Thanks BJ, the site is real happy with it. It's actually making some rounds in different paint cos, how far I don't know. But people from Behr have recieved it, the pro desk manager at HD is forwarding it to his paint counter people and his glidden rep. And it's gone to numerous BM people store level and above. I was picking the brain of a BM sales rep at a dealer Christmas luncheon and followed it up with an email, including an invite to the forum. I told him it's a tough crowd here when it comes to paint and primer in one, which they're all on board with now. He stated unequivocally that you can put Aura over bare drywall with no problem. I said I'm not buying it until I see some proof, testing, samples, etc. So far, mad scientist Jack Pauhl is the only evidence I've seen, and that still doesn't tell me it's healthy.
I have a link to this thread at the ready. I'm going to try building a link library of the more valuable threads by category. We'll see, I'm gonna do a lot of things. :laughing:

I think to problem with his "research" is sort of the same as CR's, , they have no valid info on what happens down the road
 
#35 ·
Kinda looks like he was intentionally trying to get the ICI and Duration to flash only rolling 1/3 of the wall at a time. And I also see 3 different shades of red there and that can make all the difference in the world when it comes to red. Also, in think SW has ColorAccents series which has true red bases, not the Ultra Deep Base he did the duration in.
 
#36 · (Edited)
A quick observation... I was in both SW and BM over the weekend doing a little product and price comparison.

I noticed BM had display boards up on the wall, 4 in barn red and 4 in sky blue. Basically it was a comparison grid. The two top panels displayed BM products, Aqua and Regal select and on the bottom, SW's duration and BEHR's ultra. The display was finished in a one and two coat application over, smoke, a grey colored band, sharpie, crayon and lipstick. The Aqua and Regal select completely covered the markings on the second coat, and the end result looked great!! The SW duration and BEHR ultra, the marks remained and were definitely visible. It would take at least another coat(3) to cover up the marks for both brands. This applied for both the barn red and sky blue. Based on BM's testimony, the BEHR ultra is NOT a 1-coat cover up paint/primer in one. Unfortunately, neither is SW's duration, one of their more superior DIY'rs paint. But remember, and this is where BM gets you, the duration does NOT have a primer built in, SW’s SuperPaint does however and it costs 27% less than the duration.
To be fair, I am not comparing apples to apples either, both Regal select and Duration are great paints for their price points and they both have their unique qualities. The difference for me is about 16% per gallon, Regal being the more expensive.


That is all, take it for what it is...
James
 
#38 ·
James- does not have the primer built in?? Do you actually know what that means?
It means that is is acrylic based. That is all.
And not all acrylic resins are equal. Some are better at being primer.Some are better at being paints.
Read Ric knows paints contribution on the subject.
Read JS's column mentioned in another thread-

This stuff is not simple- thats why us pros have a job!
I like Farons line- how does the paint know how to put the primer part down first...lol
 
#43 · (Edited)
I like Farons line- how does the paint know how to put the primer part down first...lol


This is funny at first read, but the paint does know how to put the (primer) or additive with the adhesion promoter down first. IIRC, a lot of the all in one paints promote the NANO technology that basically slips in between the tooth of the drywall or paint, it bonds to every surface particle like glue.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanoparticle


As far as I know, no one here has a PhD in chemistry... nor do they have that degree specifically in the paint manufacturing process. So we are all guessing at this so called new paint technology and it's hybrid capabilities, testing it in the field, making our assessments and some are drawing their conclusions. It's going to take time to make true believers...

To brushjockeys point...
I too want a problem solver, a specific paint for that particular step of the job, not something that kind does it all in one package. As good as they say this paint is at covering up a prepainted wall in two steps, I would prefer to clean the wall first, prime it, then paint it. One extra step... that's OK with me.


paint... the basics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint

primer...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paint_primer
 
#40 ·
Thanks Brushjockey for the explanation.

As it was explained to me by the SW manager, their Duration line does not include a primer, it's NOT a paint/primer hybrid. But the BM manager stated that their Regal select line is and that's why I feel BM's comparison display is skewed, they have a high end paint, two paint/primer hybrids and then the duration paint all side by side. Comparing cover-up capabilities… that's the point of the displays.

Yes, I am aware that there are different mixtures of chemicals that go into everything man made, but didn't realize that all it meant was it was acyrlic based... you make it sound so simple :thumbsup:

Yes, painting is not and easy task, especially if you want a great looking finish that will last the test of time. It takes years of experience, tricks of the trade, the right tools and an idividual that gives a sh!t about the job. If you don't have that combo, expect less than 100% and a job that's OK at best.



James
 
#44 · (Edited)
i came across this today and thought i would share

http://www.oneprojectcloser.com/price-review-duron-ralph-lauren-behr-valspar-paint-vs/

SW SuperPaint tested... (paint/"primer") when on sale it's in the low $30's


http://www.jackpauhl.com/2010/04/behr-premium-plus-ultra-eggshell/

SW Duration tested... why not compare apples to apples? btw, it's in the upper $30's during their sale period. the guys at SW state it's NOT their "all in one paint", not the best for coverup, but better for durability and potential mold compared to their SuperPaint.


i know there are a lot of factors in these independent tests, so draw your own conclusions... the way i see it, SW SuperPaint does a better job than Behr's Ultra at covering up :whistling2:


james
 
#46 · (Edited)
am not all crazy into this subject:no: ,to me its marketing hype.when i have a reason to prime i prime:yes: . grip,stain blocking,new wood,new dry wall, vapor barrier,gray primer for the reds and such,. i always price 2 coats no matter what ,this way when i leave a clients home their is no excuses, apologies,tap dancing ,nope its perfect and that's what they paid for:huh: anywho when i see a paint in primer in one or self priming all that tells me is that its a good paint. by the way sherwin williams super paint is my basic day in day out paint. the formula has not changed in years but now the label on the can says self priming .the manger at s/w looked at me and rolled his eyes. oh well what do i know? i don't have a lab jacket and i dont take my glasses off when i think:huh:
 
#47 ·
am not all crazy into this subject:no: ,to me its marketing hype.when i have a reason to prime i prime:yes: . grip,stain blocking,new wood,new dry wall, vapor barrier,gray primer for the reds and such,. i always price 2 coats no matter what ,this way when i leave a clients home their is no excuses, apologies,tap dancing ,nope its perfect and that's what they paid for:huh: anywho when i see a paint in primer in one or self priming all that tells me is that its a good paint. by the way sherwin williams super paint is my basic day in day out paint. the formula has not changed in years but now the label on the can says self priming .the manger at s/w looked at me and rolled his eyes. oh well what do i know? i don't have a lab jacket and i dont take my gasses of when think:huh:
uh oh:laughing:
 
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