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-   -   Paint and Primer in One? Some Insight (http://www.diychatroom.com/f4/paint-primer-one-some-insight-117588/)

jsheridan 09-18-2011 10:47 AM

Paint and Primer in One? Some Insight
 
Hey Folks
I managed to secure access to an online article that gives some authoritative insight on the issue. It's an excellent article, and Brushjockey will be pleased that it supports his assertion that primers are problem solvers. Though the pros know the value and necessity of primer, less knowledgable HO's and Diy'ers assume that primers are primers and any will do. Not so.
The permission to have this article available to us is generously provided by Paint and Decorating Retailers Magazine. The article is available to members/subscibers only, so we owe them thanks for giving Diychatroom members free access to help us understand this issue. Thanks to Diane Capuano, executive editor and author of the article. Please support them.

Go to my blog to find the link.

tpolk 09-18-2011 11:03 AM

thanks, good stuff :thumbsup:

Brushjockey 09-18-2011 12:10 PM

Good score JS!
Good to have a little industry back up to what us yucks in the field say.
This should be made a sticky.
I know you are also driving some hits to your site- don't want a direct link here?

The only thing that the article says the all in one can do is go over previously painted walls. Doesn't even say anything about bare rock!
Then goes on to talk about 50 primers. LOL

One thing I take exception to:

They say this
Primers’ ability to offer better hide,
especially over dark colors, is just one of
the things that they do better than paint,

Right after saying this
Paints are pigment-rich, allowing
for color acceptance and retention and
provide a durable finish.”

Fact: Paints hide better.

Other than that- right on.

Matthewt1970 09-18-2011 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brushjockey (Post 730695)
They say this
Primers’ ability to offer better hide,
especially over dark colors, is just one of
the things that they do better than paint,
Right after saying this
Paints are pigment-rich, allowing
for color acceptance and retention and
provide a durable finish.”
Fact: Paints hide better.

Other than that- right on.

I agree with you on that.

Matthewt1970 09-18-2011 12:28 PM

In a nutshell primers need a certain percentage of this and that ingedient to perform as a primer. Paints need certain percentage of other ingredients to perform as topcoats. Mixing them together dilutes the required percentages making them poor performers in both categories.

Gymschu 09-18-2011 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthewt1970 (Post 730715)
In a nutshell primers need a certain percentage of this and that ingedient to perform as a primer. Paints need certain percentage of other ingredients to perform as topcoats. Mixing them together dilutes the required percentages making them poor performers in both categories.


^^^^^Might just be the best quote on this topic, EVER!

jsheridan 09-18-2011 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brushjockey (Post 730695)
Good score JS!
Good to have a little industry back up to what us yucks in the field say.
This should be made a sticky.
I know you are also driving some hits to your site- don't want a direct link here?

The only thing that the article says the all in one can do is go over previously painted walls. Doesn't even say anything about bare rock!
Then goes on to talk about 50 primers. LOL

One thing I take exception to:

They say this
Primers’ ability to offer better hide,
especially over dark colors, is just one of
the things that they do better than paint,
Right after saying this
Paints are pigment-rich, allowing
for color acceptance and retention and
provide a durable finish.”
Fact: Paints hide better.

Other than that- right on.

I noticed that too, it was kind of crosscut when I read it. I've never known primers to be superior with coverage. I think it's a great primer, pun intended, for HO's. It's also a nice collection of info on the various new primers out there for the pro. As to a direct link, who, me? :laughing: In time I'll modify the access when I can make some changes. It took me long enough this morning to get what's there up. I'm the blogmaster too. Chrisn's anticipatory wait is over.
Now it's time to get an official position from the major paint cos.

chrisn 09-18-2011 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsheridan (Post 730828)
I noticed that too, it was kind of crosscut when I read it. I've never known primers to be superior with coverage. I think it's a great primer, pun intended, for HO's. It's also a nice collection of info on the various new primers out there for the pro. As to a direct link, who, me? :laughing: In time I'll modify the access when I can make some changes. It took me long enough this morning to get what's there up. I'm the blogmaster too. Chrisn's anticipatory wait is over.
Now it's time to get an official position from the major paint cos.


You lost me:huh:

jsheridan 09-18-2011 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisn (Post 730887)
You lost me:huh:

In a thread a while back on this topic, I said that I was working on something to help the situation. You said you were waiting with great anticipation.
I think you were mocking me:laughing::laughing::laughing:

chrisn 09-19-2011 06:07 AM

OK, now I remember. I was NOT mocking:censored:

Good article, except for what Brush already caught.

jsheridan 09-19-2011 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisn (Post 731227)
OK, now I remember. I was NOT mocking:censored:

Good article, except for what Brush already caught.

Easy now.
The article is important in two ways. As Brush said, it gives us something official to back up what us "yucks" say. And, we have a place to send them to learn about the various functions that primers serve.

ccarlisle 09-19-2011 09:22 AM

You know, once - just once - I'd like to see a more 'technical' review to what we all are talking about here (ie: about the continuum of paints and primers) and what the article by Joe also demonstrates...for once I'd like to see almost, what? a Consumers Report done on a whole list of such products, ranging from an 'ordinary' paint to an 'ordinary' primer, including all those specailty paints and specialty primers the article describes...the capability is there. The technical aspects are well known to do that comparison yet we get nothing more that a list of products available.

'Cause here's what I know: "paints" - on the one end - and "primers" on the other, represent two opposite ends of a continuous scale of formulations derived from almost identical ingredients: resins, carriers, pigments, fillers and other minor ingredients. One the one end, a paint has the almost the same ingredients as the primers on the other end, only the proportions, qualities of each type of ingredient actually change...

That's being simplistic I know, as there are years and years of research and billions of research $ that have been spent in the paint industry to find that magical difference between different raw materials to give Company X that marketing difference between their and somebody else's product. But that isn't happening...so IMO there's nothing much new under the sun here. It's a continuous line of products ranging from a pure "paint" on the one end to the pure "primer" on the other. Same ingredients, different ratios, more or less.

That explains why primer+paint in one is just marketiing hype, because nothing technically can account for it. No magic resin, no magic filler, no magic pigment that can account for one product for doing two jobs at once. The pro painter recognizes that, the homeowner doesn't....

Sure there are real exceptions like shellac primers and 100% acrylic paints; but in 40 years, there's not much else...I don't think, in any case. It's still a set of challenges that has to be met by chemical formulations with a given set of ingredients. TiO2 is TiO2 - pretty well. Organic pigments are organic pigments, acrylates are acrylates, and DEA is still an amine. Thickening can be done in a variety of ways - yet to accomplish the thickening of an expensive thickener is about the same as thickening with a cheaper ingredient...the average DIYer won't know anyway.

So there's marketing spin put on the whole range; "My product does this, my product does that..." Yet nothing or no-one can really say: "Yes your product does this but this product does that same thing better". And even then, both products could easily coexist in a saturated market...

So where does this lead us? Well, nowhere really. We are reminded of the marketing hype involved in the paint industry, that's all. This list is useful, for sure but there's isn't very much going all when all is said and done.

The only remaining question is how much are we really paying for this marketing hype? It's got to be $10-$20 per gallon, I bet. I alluded in a previous post to the fact that Behr paint is now on sale at under $20 a gallon for their interior latex. Not the Primer+Paint all in one; and I'll bet you it's the same product - only different packaging.

JohnDsouza 09-19-2011 09:47 AM

Good one.

chrisn 09-19-2011 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccarlisle (Post 731306)
You know, once - just once - I'd like to see a more 'technical' review to what we all are talking about here (ie: about the continuum of paints and primers) and what the article by Joe also demonstrates...for once I'd like to see almost, what? a Consumers Report done on a whole list of such products, ranging from an 'ordinary' paint to an 'ordinary' primer, including all those specailty paints and specialty primers the article describes...the capability is there. The technical aspects are well known to do that comparison yet we get nothing more that a list of products available.

'Cause here's what I know: "paints" - on the one end - and "primers" on the other, represent two opposite ends of a continuous scale of formulations derived from almost identical ingredients: resins, carriers, pigments, fillers and other minor ingredients. One the one end, a paint has the almost the same ingredients as the primers on the other end, only the proportions, qualities of each type of ingredient actually change...

That's being simplistic I know, as there are years and years of research and billions of research $ that have been spent in the paint industry to find that magical difference between different raw materials to give Company X that marketing difference between their and somebody else's product. But that isn't happening...so IMO there's nothing much new under the sun here. It's a continuous line of products ranging from a pure "paint" on the one end to the pure "primer" on the other. Same ingredients, different ratios, more or less.

That explains why primer+paint in one is just marketiing hype, because nothing technically can account for it. No magic resin, no magic filler, no magic pigment that can account for one product for doing two jobs at once. The pro painter recognizes that, the homeowner doesn't....

Sure there are real exceptions like shellac primers and 100% acrylic paints; but in 40 years, there's not much else...I don't think, in any case. It's still a set of challenges that has to be met by chemical formulations with a given set of ingredients. TiO2 is TiO2 - pretty well. Organic pigments are organic pigments, acrylates are acrylates, and DEA is still an amine. Thickening can be done in a variety of ways - yet to accomplish the thickening of an expensive thickener is about the same as thickening with a cheaper ingredient...the average DIYer won't know anyway.

So there's marketing spin put on the whole range; "My product does this, my product does that..." Yet nothing or no-one can really say: "Yes your product does this but this product does that same thing better". And even then, both products could easily coexist in a saturated market...

So where does this lead us? Well, nowhere really. We are reminded of the marketing hype involved in the paint industry, that's all. This list is useful, for sure but there's isn't very much going all when all is said and done.

The only remaining question is how much are we really paying for this marketing hype? It's got to be $10-$20 per gallon, I bet. I alluded in a previous post to the fact that Behr paint is now on sale at under $20 a gallon for their interior latex. Not the Primer+Paint all in one; and I'll bet you it's the same product - only different packaging.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

jsheridan 09-23-2011 09:39 AM

I reported in another thread that I did a sample test of Duration exterior on a prepped, but unprimed, section of cornice. As it happened, two to three weeks went by between the first and second coats. When I got back to do the final coat, there were some areas of discoloration haze where, maybe tannin, there was bleed through. I don't know if the second coat will hold that back. Does anyone with Duration experience know if it will? I know there are a lot of pros out there who run Duration as a primer/paint. I'm not a convert, just doing a test. The rest of the job was primed with BM Penetrating Oil primer.


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