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Old 09-01-2008, 10:39 PM   #16
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THIRDLY, ABOUT TINTING PAINT:

They use GLYCERINE as the carrier fluid for paint colourants because it's completely soluble in both mineral spirits and water. So, the same colourants can be used to tint both latex and oil based paints, so hardware stores with only one paint tinting machine don't have to change colourants if they want to tint a latex paint or an oil based paint. The problem with glycerine, however is that it's very slow to evaporate, and that will interfere with the film formation process in latex paints.

You see, latex paint is a slurry, or solid particles suspended in a liquid. It consists of coloured pigments, clear or white extender pigments and hard clear plastic blobs (called "resins") suspended in a solution of water and a low volatility water soluble solvent called a "coalescing solvent".

When you put that paint on your wall, the first thing that happens is that the water evaporates. The hard clear plastic resins find themselves surrounded by the coalescing solvent at an ever increasing concentration. This coalescing solvent dissolves into the plastic resins causing them to become very soft and sticky. The weak forces of capillary pressure and surface tension (which are the same forces that cause small water droplets in a cloud to coalesce to form larger droplets) cause these soft clear plastic resins to do the same, and that is to stick to and pull on one another so that they coalesce into a solid plastic film with no airspaces between the plastic blobs (resins) in it. The coloured pigments and extender pigments are suspended in that soft clear plastic film very much like raisins in raising bread. Then, the coalescing solvents in the soft paint film evaporate out giving you that "freshly painted" smell in the room, and as they evaporate the plastic hardens back up to the same hardness it was before the paint was put on the wall.

Now, what happens when you have lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of glycerine in your paint because they added lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of colourant to make a clear tint base dry the colour you wanted?

Well, when you put the paint on the wall, the first thing that happens is that the water evaporates. The clear hard plastic resins find themselves surrounded with coalescing solvent at a weaker concentration (cuz it's diluted with glycerine). If there's really lots and lots of glycerine, the concentration of coalescing solvent won't be high enough to soften the clear plastic resins sufficiently so that they become soft enough to deform enough to form a smooth continuous film with no air spaces in it. The result will be that the surface of the paint film won't be as smooth as it should be because the resins themselves retained some of their original shape so the surface of the paint (when viewed under a microscope) would look "bumpy" and that would make the paint look like it had a flatter gloss to it.

You're seeing that as areas of proper gloss and areas where the gloss is duller than it should be. That is, some areas had proper film formation, and others didn't. That's typical of what happens. Normally, you get proper film formation and proper gloss everywhere. If film formation is a total write-off, such as painting when it's way too cold, then you get a dull whitish film, if any film at all. In intermediate conditions, you get "flashing", which means that you get proper film formation in some areas but not in others, and that results in varying gloss or sheen of the paint film.

So, I think what's happened to cause the uneven sheen is that the amount of glycerine added, combined with probably weather conditions like high humidity or cool temperatures have resulted in improper film formation on some areas of your walls.

Definitely, go to the store and tell them that you're getting very slow drying and uneven gloss because of the glycerine added when tinting the paint, combined with the weather conditions, is interfering with proper film formation.

You might also see a "whitish" appearance in the areas of the paint film that aren't as glossy as they should be. That might not be visible yet as improper film formation also means that there will be gaps and voids between the plastic resins. However, these may still be full of glycerine, which (being a liquid) has a refractive index much closer to that of a solid (like clear plastic) that you might not see any whitish colour in the flatter areas. As the glycerine evaporates from the paint film, you're more likely to see a whitish colour developing in the dull areas of the wall.

The coalescing solvent doesn't know that it should wait for the water to evaporate. In reality, when you put paint on a wall, then both the water and coalescing solvent begin to evaporate. However, the coalescing solvent evaporates much more slowly than the water, so the concentration of it increases in the remaining water as the water evaporates. If you also have lots of glycerine in the paint, then the water evaporates fastest, the coalescing solvent second fastest and the glycerine slowest. What happens if you paint on a day with very high humidity? Well, that slows the evaporation of water from the paint, but it doesn't slow the rate at which either the coalescing solvent or glycerine evaporate. So, if you paint when it's very humid, and that humidity carries on for a few days, you can have a situation where the water evaporation rate is so slow that all the coalescing solvent evaporates from the wet paint film before the water. In that case, the paint drips down the wall, and when weather conditions change and it actually dries, it dries to a whitish coloured powder that falls off the wall and onto the floor. That's because the coalescing solvent (that promotes adhesion to the substrated and coalescence of the binder resins into a solid film) was absent, or not in a strong enough concentration to do the job it was meant to do.

Post again if you don't understand anything, or want further explanation of anything.


Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 09-01-2008 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 09-02-2008, 05:00 AM   #17
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Ok but I don't have slow dry time with the finish coat in fact it dries fast.
I was expecting to get more working time with the latex vs oil but that hasn't really been the case.


I guess I could go with flat paint, but flat latex for trim isn't really what I wanted to settled for.
I really have no idea if another brand will improve it.

Last edited by NoExperience; 09-02-2008 at 05:05 AM.
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:05 AM   #18
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This confuses me. If you are having uneven gloss, then the reason is typically because of improper film formation. When the paint being applied is a heavily tinted one, the normal culprit is that the large amount of glycerine in the paint is combining with weather conditions to cause the problem. That glycerine is very slow to evaporate and typically results in slow drying of the paint.

By the way, I got your PM by clicking on the quick links menu above and will try to respond tonight.

I'd take a picture of your paint down to the retailer and request a refund on it. Your paint shouldn't be doing what it's doing.
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Old 09-02-2008, 03:48 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor_Kelebay View Post
This confuses me. If you are having uneven gloss, then the reason is typically because of improper film formation. When the paint being applied is a heavily tinted one, the normal culprit is that the large amount of glycerine in the paint is combining with weather conditions to cause the problem. That glycerine is very slow to evaporate and typically results in slow drying of the paint.

By the way, I got your PM by clicking on the quick links menu above and will try to respond tonight.

I'd take a picture of your paint down to the retailer and request a refund on it. Your paint shouldn't be doing what it's doing.
It dries to the touch rather fast, one hour maximum.
It gets tacty fast as you paint.
But Behr said it isn't cured and I reactivate previous coats if I paint another coat too soon.
So they said wait at least 4 hours.
I waited 8 hours painted another coat with a natural brush, I got a good result only in some areas where there was a small surface to paint and I was really careful about laying it down (trying to make sure I got good coverage).
If it was rolled the result would probably be better, but that is not very practical for trim.

As far as taking a picture I don't know if the flashing would show up.
They already mentioned the possibilty of a refund to me on the phone.
I plan on following up.
Home Depot has "no refund" marked on the can, but I don't intend to just accept that, because this is beyond a color issue.

Last edited by NoExperience; 09-02-2008 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 09-02-2008, 03:54 PM   #20
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Some paints have a "touch time" and a "recoat time." The touch time is much shorter than the recoat time.

Also, the can should tell you under what conditions those times are valid. Higher humidity or lower temperatures extend those times.

SirWired
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:04 PM   #21
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Quote:
Home Depot has "no refund" marked on the can, but I don't intend to just accept that, because this is beyond a color issue.
They'll put that sticker on every can of paint they tint because some people might want to return tinted paint after changing their minds as to what colour they want. It's mostly a notice to the customer that the paint is HIS or HERS now because normally the people working at customer service will know that tinted paint isn't returnable, and they'll open the can to check if it's been tinted.

What you have appears to be paint that has so much glycerine from tinting in it that it's questionable whether or not it's forming a proper film, and any weather factors (like those mentioned by Sir Wired) are going to prevent proper film formation.

Could it be that the guy at Home Depot is presuming you're painting inside? If you're painting outdoors with cooler temperatures and higher humidity, that may affect the amount of colourant he's allowed to put in a can.

Quote:
It dries to the touch rather fast, one hour maximum.
For a latex paint applied indoors, it would normally be dry to the touch within 15 minutes. Maybe under higher humidity it might take a full hour for latex paints to be dry to the touch. Heck, if I'm painting outside on a warm sunny day, even ALKYD paint will be dry to the touch in about an hour! It's hard to call a latex paint being dry to the touch in an hour "fast".

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 09-02-2008 at 10:10 PM.
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:23 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor_Kelebay View Post
They'll put that sticker on every can of paint they tint because some people might want to return tinted paint after changing their minds as to what colour they want. It's mostly a notice to the customer that the paint is HIS or HERS now because normally the people working at customer service will know that tinted paint isn't returnable, and they'll open the can to check if it's been tinted.

What you have appears to be paint that has so much glycerine from tinting in it that it's questionable whether or not it's forming a proper film, and any weather factors (like those mentioned by Sir Wired) are going to prevent proper film formation.

Could it be that the guy at Home Depot is presuming you're painting inside? If you're painting outdoors with cooler temperatures and higher humidity, that may affect the amount of colourant he's allowed to put in a can.



For a latex paint applied indoors, it would normally be dry to the touch within 15 minutes. Maybe under higher humidity it might take a full hour for latex paints to be dry to the touch. Heck, if I'm painting outside on a warm sunny day, even ALKYD paint will be dry to the touch in about an hour! It's hard to call a latex paint being dry to the touch in an hour "fast".
NESTOR I DID NOT SAY IT TOOK AN HOUR TO DRY.
I DID NOT TIME THE PAINT.
I SAID AN HOUR MAXIMUM.
ALL I KNOW IT I WAITED AN HOUR BETWEEN COATS AND IT WAS DRY.
IT WAS PROBABLY DRY IN FAR LESS.
IT HAS ZERO PROBLEMS DRYING IN FACT IT HAS A WORKING TIME PROBLEM OF SETTING UP TOO FAST.
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:25 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirwired View Post
Some paints have a "touch time" and a "recoat time." The touch time is much shorter than the recoat time.

Also, the can should tell you under what conditions those times are valid. Higher humidity or lower temperatures extend those times.

SirWired
Thank you I do not have any trouble with the drying time.
The paint dries fast.
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Old 09-02-2008, 10:33 PM   #24
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There must have been a way to paint in this color being that I chose the paint color from sample colors in the store.
Plus I have to believe that there are dark color paints jobs out there.
In fact I have seen black.

I paid for another quart of zinsser, I used thier 123 water based primer and had it tinted.
Not as dark as the finish coat .
I had it tinted a coffee color(like coffee with cream in it) maybe a little darker.
I painted the areas I don't have any finish coat on.
One coat 95% coverage over white oil primer.
It layed on beautiful , no streaky bulksh*t, good working time fast dry time.
So no problems with weather.

Doesn't solve anything really because it still leaves me deciding what to do with this finish coat.
All it does it give me a darker primer coat.

Last edited by NoExperience; 09-02-2008 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 09-02-2008, 11:05 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nestor_Kelebay View Post
THIRDLY, ABOUT TINTING PAINT:

They use GLYCERINE as the carrier fluid for paint colourants because it's completely soluble in both mineral spirits and water. So, the same colourants can be used to tint both latex and oil based paints, so hardware stores with only one paint tinting machine don't have to change colourants if they want to tint a latex paint or an oil based paint. The problem with glycerine, however is that it's very slow to evaporate, and that will interfere with the film formation process in latex paints.

You see, latex paint is a slurry, or solid particles suspended in a liquid. It consists of coloured pigments, clear or white extender pigments and hard clear plastic blobs (called "resins") suspended in a solution of water and a low volatility water soluble solvent called a "coalescing solvent".

When you put that paint on your wall, the first thing that happens is that the water evaporates. The hard clear plastic resins find themselves surrounded by the coalescing solvent at an ever increasing concentration. This coalescing solvent dissolves into the plastic resins causing them to become very soft and sticky. The weak forces of capillary pressure and surface tension (which are the same forces that cause small water droplets in a cloud to coalesce to form larger droplets) cause these soft clear plastic resins to do the same, and that is to stick to and pull on one another so that they coalesce into a solid plastic film with no airspaces between the plastic blobs (resins) in it. The coloured pigments and extender pigments are suspended in that soft clear plastic film very much like raisins in raising bread. Then, the coalescing solvents in the soft paint film evaporate out giving you that "freshly painted" smell in the room, and as they evaporate the plastic hardens back up to the same hardness it was before the paint was put on the wall.

Now, what happens when you have lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of glycerine in your paint because they added lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of colourant to make a clear tint base dry the colour you wanted?

Well, when you put the paint on the wall, the first thing that happens is that the water evaporates. The clear hard plastic resins find themselves surrounded with coalescing solvent at a weaker concentration (cuz it's diluted with glycerine). If there's really lots and lots of glycerine, the concentration of coalescing solvent won't be high enough to soften the clear plastic resins sufficiently so that they become soft enough to deform enough to form a smooth continuous film with no air spaces in it. The result will be that the surface of the paint film won't be as smooth as it should be because the resins themselves retained some of their original shape so the surface of the paint (when viewed under a microscope) would look "bumpy" and that would make the paint look like it had a flatter gloss to it.

You're seeing that as areas of proper gloss and areas where the gloss is duller than it should be. That is, some areas had proper film formation, and others didn't. That's typical of what happens. Normally, you get proper film formation and proper gloss everywhere. If film formation is a total write-off, such as painting when it's way too cold, then you get a dull whitish film, if any film at all. In intermediate conditions, you get "flashing", which means that you get proper film formation in some areas but not in others, and that results in varying gloss or sheen of the paint film.

So, I think what's happened to cause the uneven sheen is that the amount of glycerine added, combined with probably weather conditions like high humidity or cool temperatures have resulted in improper film formation on some areas of your walls.

Definitely, go to the store and tell them that you're getting very slow drying and uneven gloss because of the glycerine added when tinting the paint, combined with the weather conditions, is interfering with proper film formation.

You might also see a "whitish" appearance in the areas of the paint film that aren't as glossy as they should be. That might not be visible yet as improper film formation also means that there will be gaps and voids between the plastic resins. However, these may still be full of glycerine, which (being a liquid) has a refractive index much closer to that of a solid (like clear plastic) that you might not see any whitish colour in the flatter areas. As the glycerine evaporates from the paint film, you're more likely to see a whitish colour developing in the dull areas of the wall.

The coalescing solvent doesn't know that it should wait for the water to evaporate. In reality, when you put paint on a wall, then both the water and coalescing solvent begin to evaporate. However, the coalescing solvent evaporates much more slowly than the water, so the concentration of it increases in the remaining water as the water evaporates. If you also have lots of glycerine in the paint, then the water evaporates fastest, the coalescing solvent second fastest and the glycerine slowest. What happens if you paint on a day with very high humidity? Well, that slows the evaporation of water from the paint, but it doesn't slow the rate at which either the coalescing solvent or glycerine evaporate. So, if you paint when it's very humid, and that humidity carries on for a few days, you can have a situation where the water evaporation rate is so slow that all the coalescing solvent evaporates from the wet paint film before the water. In that case, the paint drips down the wall, and when weather conditions change and it actually dries, it dries to a whitish coloured powder that falls off the wall and onto the floor. That's because the coalescing solvent (that promotes adhesion to the substrated and coalescence of the binder resins into a solid film) was absent, or not in a strong enough concentration to do the job it was meant to do.

Post again if you don't understand anything, or want further explanation of anything.
I have no whitish colored powder at all , and no major trouble with drips.
I hava a paint that when you brush it on it doesn't cover well.
You see between the brush marks.
And this paint doesn't allow much rebrushing.
So you get the best coverage you can thinking you will cover on the next coat and before you know it you are into 5 or 6 coats.

It is not so much that it is transluscent after a couple of coats, like rolling paint on a wall that isn't covering.
It's more a problem of getting full coverage with the brush.
And you can watch it start to dry and it dries uneven.
It's a color that I have been told...hey that looks good.

But this area I painted is the stair risers and stringers and I can see that I wont like it on my trimwork up at eye level.

What I waas expecting was a smooth hard surface with a sheen, a flat crisp look to the surface.
This is as best as I can describe like a thicker coating over the surface that has glossy brush marks.
After another coat I don't have as much flashing.
But I don't have a smooth sheen.

In fact the reason I went with semi gloss was the protection.
And that is what I heard that most people use on trim.

I don't know what this color would look like in flat or if it makes sense to used flat latex on trim.
But my tinted primer looks good in that it lays flat without build up and the corners and edges of the trimwork maintain a sharper appearance vs the semi gloss which looks more like a membrain.
Although when you run your hand over it , it really feels like you have some serious protection LOL.

Last edited by NoExperience; 09-02-2008 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 09-03-2008, 06:36 AM   #26
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Thank you I do not have any trouble with the drying time.
The paint dries fast.
Did you observe the minimum re-coat time on the can? I ask because paint can get "tacky" quickly (and leave brush marks) and still have a recoat time of four hours. You cannot judge by look or feel when re-coating; instead you must observe the package directions. Most paints are dry to the touch in one hour, but still must have four (or more) hours between coats.

My usual trim enamel (Sherwin Williams Waterbourne ProClassic) gets tacky in about two minutes (kind of a pain, actually), but still has a recoat time of four hours (and you can really tell the difference after those four hours, as far as how the coating looks)

I checked on the Behr Product I think you said you were using (Premium Plus Ultra Exterior Semi-Gloss), and it specifices a recoat time of four hours between coats at 77 Degrees and 50% humidity. If you shortcut this, your next coat will never look right.

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Old 09-03-2008, 07:37 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by sirwired View Post
Did you observe the minimum re-coat time on the can? I ask because paint can get "tacky" quickly (and leave brush marks) and still have a recoat time of four hours. You cannot judge by look or feel when re-coating; instead you must observe the package directions. Most paints are dry to the touch in one hour, but still must have four (or more) hours between coats.

My usual trim enamel (Sherwin Williams Waterbourne ProClassic) gets tacky in about two minutes (kind of a pain, actually), but still has a recoat time of four hours (and you can really tell the difference after those four hours, as far as how the coating looks)

I checked on the Behr Product I think you said you were using (Premium Plus Ultra Exterior Semi-Gloss), and it specifices a recoat time of four hours between coats at 77 Degrees and 50% humidity. If you shortcut this, your next coat will never look right.

SirWired
THe can said two hours dry time possibly more for dark colors.
And you are correct it does improve with waiting longer between coats.

The trouble is 3 fold.
1. With waiting at least 4 hours between coats it makes the job of paint very time consuming because this stuff required multiple coats.
2. I'd still like to get better result: less brush strokes, most consistent gloss.
3. I dont see touch up work as something that would be convenient.

You are correct this stuff is not effort free as far as applying it.
If I had experience with it in the past I would have never gone with the semi gloss for that reason.
I'm not really getting 2 minutes work time, I say i'm getting less than that.
You need to paint this stuff on uninterrupted.

Seems to me also that the type of brush makes a big difference too.
I would need to find better brushes for this stuff.

Last edited by NoExperience; 09-03-2008 at 07:39 AM.
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Old 09-03-2008, 08:55 AM   #28
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If the can states two hours (more for dark colors) between coats, than that is how long you need to wait. If you have only been waiting one hour, that could explain a lot of your problems. What may be happening is that your new paint is "re-activating" your old paint, which is providing a nice, deep surface for your brush to carve marks in.

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Old 09-03-2008, 07:19 PM   #29
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Yeah that issue has been addressed and beaten to death.
It really doesn't completely solve the problem.
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Old 09-04-2008, 04:26 AM   #30
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You could have avoided this whole discussion by gettig rid of the BEHR and buying some real paint.

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