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NoExperience 08-30-2008 05:06 PM

oil base paints
 
What are some good oil base paints for trim work inside a garage ?
I want a durable finish.
I am figuring I should use exterior paint.
I am painting the trim a chocolate brown so I am guessing I dont need to worry about yellowing of the oil base paint ????

Nestor_Kelebay 08-30-2008 08:12 PM

Oil based paints will provide a harder and more durable finish than latex paints do. Lots of people in here like a water based product made by Sherwin Williams called "Pro Classic". They're saying it gives you the hardness of oil, but with the convenience of a latex, and it's non-yellowing. I've never used the stuff, so I can't say I know much about it.

Every oil based paint will yellow in dim lighting conditions. If there's plenty of indirect sunlight in your garage with the door open, then that indirect sunlight will bleach out any yellowing, so you shouldn't have to be concerned about it anyhow. Yellowing is really only a problem where there's little direct or indirect natural light, or generally dim lighting, like inside cabinets and closets.

If you do go with an oil based paint. I'd suggest you go with a FLAT paint. Flat paint's aren't as hard and durable as their gloss counterparts, but the advantage is that when it eventually comes time to repaint, you won't need to sand the paint down to get good adhesion of a subsequent coat.

JackOfAllTrades 08-31-2008 03:35 AM

Aren't oil based paints meant more for metals?

slickshift 08-31-2008 08:41 AM

Any of the premium oil-based enamels should be fine
(Sherwin William, Ben Moore's Impervo or Dulamel)

Never use an exterior paint in an enclosed area, even a porch or garage
The mildecides "off-gas" for years, and can create health issues in enclosed spaces

With brown, you will not have to worry about "yellowing"

JOAT:
Oils have traditionally been used for wooden trim (and decades ago walls)
It's only lately with the increase in quality of waterborne enamels that waterbornes have become popular
Oils do have more ability to hold back rust, and are still superior for metals where rust is or could be an issue
On a related note, one will find many of the old favorite oil-based paints for trim and floor, being relabeled as "metal only" to comply with EPA laws
In most of these cases, it's merely a labeling change

NoExperience 08-31-2008 01:59 PM

Thank you for the replies.
I'd like some input on what slickshift said about not using exterior paint inside of a garage because of gasses.
My initial thought was the exterior would hold up better in the temperature conditions that is why I went with exterior.
It is an attached garage but like all garages it's not completely air tight I do have an overhead door that isn't air tight.
Don't these gasses dissipate just with traffic in and out of the house?
Will interior paint hold up to outdoor temperature changes?


Also on oil I'm trying to get a general opinion on what your preferences are for trim oil or latex.
Based on what I see in the test area I painted with latex, right now I like the oil.
The Zinsser primer I used is rock hard and you can sand down drips without tearing or pealing the paint off.
So that makes me think an oil finish coat would be far more durable.
But the Zinsser primer has sort of a glossy finish I dont know if that causes a problem with finish coats adhering.

Many of these people are saying it's the brand of semi-gloss that is the problem.
BUT.....
I have Behr eggshell on the walls inside the house and it stands up to wear.
I can flick off paint flecks on the Behr semi gloss test area(garage) with my fingernail.
I cannot do this on the walls inside the house painted years ago with Behr eggshell.
Is this because it takes longer for paints to harden then I think it does?
This test area paint has been dryng for close to 2 days.
Does it takes several days or weeks to achieve a true hardness?
The oil base primer achieved a hard finsh right away.
Or is there a problem with latex over oil base primer?

On the yellowing, when we are talking yellowing how long a time frame are we talking about?
As far light effecting the yellowing in the garage it isn't really that well lit.


I'm looking to get 10 years out of this paint job.
But I just really don't feel confident that latex will give me that.
Color wise it probably will, but I question how many areas will I have where I see the white primer through peels or flakes.
At this point I'm wondering how this semi-gloss exterior would actually hold up outside where it is intended to be used, if I'm not even satisfied with the toughness of the finish for inside a garage.

I need to make a decision on the trim paint soon because it's holding up the rest of the work, I appreciate all input.

NoExperience 08-31-2008 02:20 PM

The other thing is this...
When painting with the oil base primer, you cannot go back and feather out the paint too much because the paint adheres to the surface real well.
As opposed to the latex which has far more working time.
I've never painted with an oil finsh coat, but the oil primer coat gives me the impression that the oil paints have a lot more adhesion.

Nestor_Kelebay 08-31-2008 05:59 PM

No Experience:

Exterior paints contain mildewcides, but I think it's a popular misconception that the mildewcides work by "fumigating" the enclosed space. Most mildewcides are in fact solids that are highly soluble in water. Bathroom paints, for example, have the largest amounts of mildewcides in them, and yet no one gets sick from having bathroom paint on their bathroom walls. If a paint does use a mildewcide that off-gasses, that company's legal department will ensure the paint label is covered with warnings about not using it in an enclosed place that will be occupied. Otherwise, someone's gonna do it, and then try to sue the manufacturer for not warning them NOT to do that.

However, you should never paint anything that a child might lick or put in his mouth with an exterior paint or a bathroom paint or even a kitchen and bath paint because the mildewcides in the paint migrate to the surface of the paint because of their high solubility in water. Any mildewcides on the surface will dissolve in the saliva and be ingested by the child.

Other than ingesting mildewcides and fungicides by licking the paint, I am not aware of any health concerns associated with using exterior paints indoors.

Here is what the Paint Quality Institute has to say on the subject:

Question
Is it ok to use a latex paint exterior paint inside the house?
Answer
Use caution in using exterior latex paint indoors because: A. exterior paints may have more odor than you want B. they may dry more slowly, and be softer than you want C. the flow-out of brushmarks may not be as good as you would get with an interior paint. D. check the product label and directions carefully, in case a product's directions state that it should not be used indoors.

http://www.paintquality.com/faq/Inte...ntindoors.html

Exterior paints will frequently use more low quality coalescing solvents that smell more (and worse) than interior latex paints. Also, no one scrubs on the exterior of their house to clean it, so the binders used in exterior latex paints won't dry to as hard a film as is desireable on interior paints.

Notice that the Paint Quality FAQ file didn't say anything at all about potential health hazards associated with using exterior paints indoors? If there were such health risks, and there were no mention of them, this would have to be the Mother of all Oversights.

Here's Valspar's web page for their "Super Mildex" mildewcide that can be added to paints at the point of purchase:

http://www.valsparglobal.com/val/res...tadditives.jsp

Super Mildex® paint additive

Super Mildex is a paint mildewcide that is added to paint and wallpaper adhesives to inhibit mildew. Mildew can quickly ruin the appearance of a bathroom, basement and exterior of a home or anywhere moistures lives. Super Mildex can be used indoors and outdoors and does not cause yellowing as some paint mildewcides do.
Quote:

Will interior paint hold up to outdoor temperature changes?
Interior latex paints will do well on the inside of your garage. Basically, the primary difference between interior and exterior latex paints is that exterior latex paints contain UV blockers and more mildewcides.

Interior alkyd paints dry to a harder film that doesn't have the elasticity to swell and shrink with wood as it's moisture content changes with seasonal changes in humidity.

So, if you want to use an alkyd paint, then stick with an exterior alkyd. If you're wanting to use a latex paint, then either an interior or exterior would do. If you're concerned about off-gassing of mildewcides, then opt for the interior latex paint.

Quote:

As opposed to the latex which has far more working time.
If you're getting a longer working time from latex paints, then you're not using a proper alkyd primer. You might be using a product like KILZ sealer or Zinsser's BIN primer.

Stay away from anything that calls itself a "stain sealer". Most of these products will work by drying excessivly rapidly so as to encapsulate the "stain".

Aside: When anything "bleeds through" primer or paint, what's actually happening is that the substance is dissolving in the water or mineral spirits in the paint, diffusing through the wet paint film to the surface, and discolouring the surface. To prevent that, some stain sealers will use a different thinner so as to avoid the substance dissolving in it. Zinsser's BIN primer uses shellac dissolved in alcohol in the hopes that whatever is soluble in water or mineral spirits won't be soluble in alcohol. But, alcohol evaporates very quickly. KILZ sealer uses a mixture of 60 percent naptha and 40 percent mineral spirits as the thinner. Naptha evaporates very quickly, and the idea is that the primer dries so fast that the stain doesn't have time to diffuse through the wet paint film.

So, if you're having trouble using oil based primer, then check that it's a normal alkyd primer you're using and not a primer that's meant to prevent stains from bleeding through.

Quote:

I've never painted with an oil finsh coat, but the oil primer coat gives me the impression that the oil paints have a lot more adhesion.
Alkyd primers do have much better adhesion to wood. The reason why is that alkyd primer and paint resins are MUCH smaller than latex primer and paint resins. As a result, alkyd resins actually penetrate into the wood cells and cell walls. Latex resins, on the other hand, simply stick to the surface of the wood. Latex resins don't penetrate into the wood at all.
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slickshift 08-31-2008 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NoExperience (Post 153576)
I'd like some input on what slickshift said about not using exterior paint inside of a garage because of gasses.

It is an attached garage but like all garages it's not completely air tight I do have an overhead door that isn't air tight.

Don't these gasses dissipate just with traffic in and out of the house?
Will interior paint hold up to outdoor temperature changes?

You have a point inasmuchas it's not a "living" space per say, and often opened up
However, as it is a risk, and actual "airing out" is unknown (many interiors have open windows all year round) I doubt you will find any manufacturers that will recommend their exterior paints for indoors, even for garages
Could they be erring on the side of caution?
Yes
However, I would in this case (unseen health hazards that might not show up for years), never contradict a manufacturer

After dealing with paint manufacturers for a few decades, the fact that when asked about this, the manufacturers I've dealt with all say "under no circumstances" do this, is good enough for me

I do know that many manufactures mildecides are designed to come to the surface over the life of the paint and meant to be "aired out" in the open air
That's what bothers me
As outside paints are never meant to be used indoors, I'm not confident the bath paint and exterior mildecides are the same thing

Sorry...I'd "Just Say No"

NoExperience 08-31-2008 09:37 PM

I called Behr and the person I was talking to didn't seem to confident in what he was telling me .
In fact he has to go check with someone to answer that question about off gassing.
But he said the mildewcides are mostly gassed off as the paint dries and isn't a concern afterwards.
But he also said some people are sensitive to odors and the paint under extreme heat might give off an odor.
Sounded like a condradiction.
He wasn't too sure if the wfor the indoor paint were exactly the same and said the main thing is just like lead you don't want kids injesting mildewcides.

He also said it isn't washable for 17 days so that probably explains why the surface isn't as durable as I want it to be right now.
He said in about 2 weeks when it's fully cured he feels I will be happy with the result.

He said outdoor paint wasn't a bad option for inside a garage but thinks the indoor paint has better washability.
Not what I wanted to hear.

In the end I settled on going forward with this paint.
If I were to do this again I would have bought a quart of oil base and did a test area to see if I liked the finish and hardness and then went from there.
That was my first inclination but I was persuaded by most people I talked to that said to go with latex.

No one at that point warned me about off gassing and the home depot thought outdoor paint was a good option.
Myself I wasn't sure about whether outdoor was better in the cold than indoor paint.
He said the advantage of latex is the paint is more flexible but with a well prepared surface oil is very reliable and won't blister.

shasta37 09-01-2008 05:08 PM

garage
 
Methinks you are battling an unseen enemy here; swimming against the current.

Your garage is not exposed to 12/7 UV, and does not get rained on. Proper surface prep and a *quality interior product will be all you need.

Oil-based anything, IMHO, is for exterior wood applications, or possibly *new interior wood app's.

Nothing wil be satisfactory on exterior green wood which will bubble and bleed like hell. I'm currently dealing with issue myself...

NoExperience 09-01-2008 06:12 PM

It is new trim, all new.

Anyways this Behr paint, the color looks ok , the coverage is poor it takes multiple coats to cover a white primer.
Probably should have had the primer tinted.

But even so this paint
1. doesnt flow on evenly you can see thru the brush strokes even after two or three coats.
In other words it has trouble adhering to itself as you apply it .
I was using a polyester brush.
Then I swithed to a natural bristle which was softer and was somewhat better but I stll do not like the result.

2. Working time is is poor it, gets tacky fast.
So it's not laying even and when you try overlapping its tacky.

The end result is a lot of coats to cover and a ****ty looking uneven sheen with dry patches.
To me not being a painter I would describe the problem as the paint not have good adhesion (sliding) and limited working time.


Can anyone tell me what the painting terminology is for what this paint is doing , leaving this uneven gloss (gloss area, dry area)
I know I'm going to get a lot of funny answers to that question.
But I'm looking for the terminology to use when I talk to Behr/Home depot about this junk.

I going to try to get a refund for this ****.

Does anyone have any advice about painting with semi gloss using a dark color.
What are the best brushes etc.
It really shouldn't be this difficult.
I have done excellent prep work, and my result is ****ty as far as I'm concerned with this patchy finish as far as the gloss.
Why would I need to try and be ultra particular in the way I apply this paint to get an even gloss, it should be an easy job.
WTF?

I really only see this Behr paint giving my even gloss if I rolled the crap on to spread it fast an even, but that isn't practical with trim.
This time I'm going to buy a quart of another brand before I commit.

Now I'm hearing people say Kilz primer is crap and I spent a ton of money using it on my walls.

chrisn 09-01-2008 06:52 PM

Anyways this Behr paint,

Can anyone tell me what the painting terminology is for what this paint is doing

It is called"crappy" paint:laughing:

This time I'm going to buy a quart of another brand before I commit.

Do so at a "real "paint store and get the top of the line quality

slickshift 09-01-2008 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisn
It is called "crappy" paint :laughing:

That it is...that it is....

Nestor_Kelebay 09-01-2008 10:32 PM

No Experience:

The computer on this site says that I have to break this post up into two pieces because it won't accept a post longer than 10,000 characters. But, I believe I know what's happening and why you're having the problems you are having.

The technical word for what your paint is doing is "flashing". It's the uneven gloss that results when one or more things interfere with proper film formation in latex piants. Flashing can be caused by mixing incompatable latex paints, by applying the paint in cold or humid conditions, by glycerine in the paint interfering with the coalescence of the binder resins or a host of other things that toss a monkey wrench into the machinery of proper latex paint film formation. Read on...

You said: "Does anyone have any advice about painting with semi gloss using a dark color."

That is likely to be a big hunk of the problem right there. Another big hunk would be the weather conditions at the time you're painting. Put those two hunks together, and they would explain why you're getting flashing of your paint.

Welcome to Latex Paints 101. By the time you finish reading this post, you'll know more than most people working in paint stores about latex paints.

Most companies no longer offer coloured tint bases. So now, if someone wants a RED paint (for example) they take a can of paint that would otherwise dry clear, and add lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of red colourant to that clear tint base to make it dry to a red colour. If you did the same thing with a white tint base (even if there was room for that much colorant in the can) the best you could do is a pink paint. That's cuz the can would already have lots of white pigment in it. To make any solid non-white colour, they start with a "Deep" or "Accent" (pronounced "clear") tint base and add enough colourant to it to make it dry to that colour rather than a clear film.

FIRSTLY, ABOUT THE CHOICE OF COLOUR:
Now, about paint colourants: The paint colourants in the paint tinting machine are solid coloured particles (called "pigments") suspended in GLYCERINE. Not all pigments are equally opaque, and so not all paint colours hide equally well. Two of the worst have historically been red and yellow. Napthol Red and Toluidine Red (both a blood red colour) and Arylide Yellow (also called "Hansa Yellow", which is the colour of a healthy canary) have historically been the worst for hiding strength. Also, the Blue and Green pigments (Phthalocyanine Blue, which is Navy Blue and Phthalocyanine Green, which is Hunter Green and is made by chlorinating the blue pigment) don't have very good hiding strength either.

Similarily, any colour like orange or purple you can make by mixing these "organic" colours won't have very good hide either.

The poor hide you're experiencing, may very well be due to the colour you've chosed for the paint. Had you chosen an "inorganic pigment", such as:

1. yellow oxide (which is a mustard yellow kinda colour) and is the synthetic equivalent of the natural pigment "Raw Sienna",

2. red oxide (which is really just pulverized rust and is a reddish brown colour),

3. brown oxide, which is chocolate brown in colour and is yet another iron oxide with impurities in it just like the previous two,

4. Raw Umber, which is a very dark brown that can almost be mistaken for black,

5. Black, which is actually ordinary soot, and is made by burning natural gas in special furnaces with insufficient oxygen to produce copious quantities of soot, or

6. Titanium dioxide, which is the white pigment, and the most expensive pigment in the paint tinting machine.

Then any of these previous 6 colours would have given you both better hide and better colourfastness. And, any colour you can make by mixing these previous 6 colours would give you equally good hide and colourfastness.

SECONDLY: ABOUT THE CHOICE OF GLOSS
Basically, all things being equal, the higher the gloss of the paint, the less well it will hide. That's because they add "flattening agents" also called "extender pigments" to make paints dry to a rougher or less glossy film. Were it not for extender pigments, all paints would dry to a high gloss film. Extender pigments are huge rocks that are almost large enough to see with the naked eye. The glossier the paint you choose, the less extender pigments you'll have in the paint, and the more finely ground (or "smaller") they will be. These extender pigments increase hide by reflecting and refracting light so that it travels a longer path through the paint film.

When a paint has poor hide, it's because the incident light is reflecting off the substrate, and making it back out of the paint film to reach your eye. Obviously, a clear high gloss paint would have very poor hide. Even if you put CLEAR extender pigments in that paint, it would very much increase hide because light would reflect and refract at each plastic/pigment interface. You can prove this to yourself by stacking up microscope glass slides. Even though each slide is perfectly transparent, a stack of 20 of them will be opaque. That's because there will be a microscopically thin layer of air between each slide, and light trying to go through the stack of slides will both reflect and refract at each glass/air interface. Typically clear glass allows 96 percent of the light through and reflects 4 percent back. So, with a 4 percent loss at each glass/air or air/glass interface, you only have about 20 percent of the incident light coming out the other end of that stack. If that light then reflects off a substrate, an additional 80 percent of the 20 percent of the light will be lost by reflection on the way back out of the stack. So, only about 4 percent of the light that went into one end of the stack will reflect off the substrate and make it back out again.

You have exactly the same optics going on it a paint film. The more extender pigments you have in the paint film, the more reflection and refraction there is, and the less light reflects off the substrate and makes it back out of the paint film to your eyes. Also, if there are coloured pigments in the paint film, these also absorb light to varying degrees. The white pigment titanium dioxide reflects and refracts light, but doesn't absorb it very well. The black pigment, soot, absorbs most of the light that hit's it, and reflects or refracts very little light.

In your case, you've got a semi-gloss paint which has very little extender pigment in it, and so the amount of hide due to reflection and refraction is going to be small.

NoExperience 09-01-2008 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nestor_Kelebay (Post 153665)
No Experience:

Exterior paints contain mildewcides, but I think it's a popular misconception that the mildewcides work by "fumigating" the enclosed space. Most mildewcides are in fact solids that are highly soluble in water. Bathroom paints, for example, have the largest amounts of mildewcides in them, and yet no one gets sick from having bathroom paint on their bathroom walls. If a paint does use a mildewcide that off-gasses, that company's legal department will ensure the paint label is covered with warnings about not using it in an enclosed place that will be occupied. Otherwise, someone's gonna do it, and then try to sue the manufacturer for not warning them NOT to do that.

However, you should never paint anything that a child might lick or put in his mouth with an exterior paint or a bathroom paint or even a kitchen and bath paint because the mildewcides in the paint migrate to the surface of the paint because of their high solubility in water. Any mildewcides on the surface will dissolve in the saliva and be ingested by the child.

Other than ingesting mildewcides and fungicides by licking the paint, I am not aware of any health concerns associated with using exterior paints indoors.

Here is what the Paint Quality Institute has to say on the subject:

Question
Is it ok to use a latex paint exterior paint inside the house?
Answer
Use caution in using exterior latex paint indoors because: A. exterior paints may have more odor than you want B. they may dry more slowly, and be softer than you want C. the flow-out of brushmarks may not be as good as you would get with an interior paint. D. check the product label and directions carefully, in case a product's directions state that it should not be used indoors.

http://www.paintquality.com/faq/Inte...ntindoors.html

Exterior paints will frequently use more low quality coalescing solvents that smell more (and worse) than interior latex paints. Also, no one scrubs on the exterior of their house to clean it, so the binders used in exterior latex paints won't dry to as hard a film as is desireable on interior paints.

Notice that the Paint Quality FAQ file didn't say anything at all about potential health hazards associated with using exterior paints indoors? If there were such health risks, and there were no mention of them, this would have to be the Mother of all Oversights.

Here's Valspar's web page for their "Super Mildex" mildewcide that can be added to paints at the point of purchase:

http://www.valsparglobal.com/val/res...tadditives.jsp

Super Mildex® paint additive

Super Mildex is a paint mildewcide that is added to paint and wallpaper adhesives to inhibit mildew. Mildew can quickly ruin the appearance of a bathroom, basement and exterior of a home or anywhere moistures lives. Super Mildex can be used indoors and outdoors and does not cause yellowing as some paint mildewcides do.


Interior latex paints will do well on the inside of your garage. Basically, the primary difference between interior and exterior latex paints is that exterior latex paints contain UV blockers and more mildewcides.

Interior alkyd paints dry to a harder film that doesn't have the elasticity to swell and shrink with wood as it's moisture content changes with seasonal changes in humidity.

So, if you want to use an alkyd paint, then stick with an exterior alkyd. If you're wanting to use a latex paint, then either an interior or exterior would do. If you're concerned about off-gassing of mildewcides, then opt for the interior latex paint.



If you're getting a longer working time from latex paints, then you're not using a proper alkyd primer. You might be using a product like KILZ sealer or Zinsser's BIN primer.

Stay away from anything that calls itself a "stain sealer". Most of these products will work by drying excessivly rapidly so as to encapsulate the "stain".

Aside: When anything "bleeds through" primer or paint, what's actually happening is that the substance is dissolving in the water or mineral spirits in the paint, diffusing through the wet paint film to the surface, and discolouring the surface. To prevent that, some stain sealers will use a different thinner so as to avoid the substance dissolving in it. Zinsser's BIN primer uses shellac dissolved in alcohol in the hopes that whatever is soluble in water or mineral spirits won't be soluble in alcohol. But, alcohol evaporates very quickly. KILZ sealer uses a mixture of 60 percent naptha and 40 percent mineral spirits as the thinner. Naptha evaporates very quickly, and the idea is that the primer dries so fast that the stain doesn't have time to diffuse through the wet paint film.

So, if you're having trouble using oil based primer, then check that it's a normal alkyd primer you're using and not a primer that's meant to prevent stains from bleeding through.



Alkyd primers do have much better adhesion to wood. The reason why is that alkyd primer and paint resins are MUCH smaller than latex primer and paint resins. As a result, alkyd resins actually penetrate into the wood cells and cell walls. Latex resins, on the other hand, simply stick to the surface of the wood. Latex resins don't penetrate into the wood at all.
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Nestor I wasn't having trouble with the oil base primer in fact I like the Zinsser.
What I was trying to say what I was expecting more working time with the finish coat using the semi gloss latex enamel.
Seems like I can't go over my brush strokes much at all.

One of the guys at home depot (one worker there that seems to have some experience) said that most of the problems I'm having are due to the dark color.
The amount of pigment need is effecting the performance of the paint.


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