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Old 09-13-2010, 12:20 PM   #1
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New exterior paint coming off


A fairly recently contracted exterior paint job has its primer and top paint coming off within 7 months of application, and has progressively gotten worse in the last few months. The walls were power washed, and scraped to remove loose paint. However some of the adhering older paint was left on but feathered smooth. Of the paint that's coming off, is some of the older paint but also quite a bit of the new primer and paint. A high quality name brand paint was used. I assume sufficient drying time was allowed after the washing and claims of the usual prep. methods were used. So, samples of the chips were taken to the paint retailer, and the manager says there are "wood fibers" on the back side of the chips. I don't know. I could see a little tingeing on the the chips but fibers to me were not apparent. But nonetheless he was calling this "wood delamenation". The house was built in the late 20's, but a relatively new add-on of about 15 yrs has the same problems. The manager said the only way assure a lasting paint job would be a complete paint strip and sand down to newer wood. Should a professional painter known this and suggested this method when we were in the estimation phase of the work and given us a more accurate account of work needed and the extra cost involved? Or is delamenation a bogus claim with other root causes to explore? Professional opinions are appreciated. Del P

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Old 09-13-2010, 12:33 PM   #2
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New exterior paint coming off


Sounds as though there is moisture beneath this paint - or the surface, having been power washed (which forces water into the wood) may not have been allowed sufficient time to dry. There are other variables of course. Such as the integrity of the surface of this wood siding. What type of wood is it, what base primer and topcoats were used, were moisture readings taken before painting? Are areas in the shade worse than others which receive more sun. I came in on a redwood home which had a similar problem long ago. That was a situation where the wood had not been sanded down to tight surface wood. Really can't make a statement as to what exactly is the fault here though. Just too many unknowns.

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Old 09-13-2010, 12:37 PM   #3
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New exterior paint coming off


Where are you located and what kinds of primer and paint were used?
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Old 09-13-2010, 04:46 PM   #4
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New exterior paint coming off


all of the above - plus - was a moisture meter used? How long did the contractor wait after power washing before priming? What was the weather especially the humidity like. Do you have any pictures you can post? The more info you get, the better. However, the first thing I would do is speak to the contractor and he should get together with the rep from whatever paint company you used and figure this out for you.
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Old 09-14-2010, 10:20 AM   #5
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New exterior paint coming off


Sherwin/Williams latex primer and top coat paints were used. The contractor, getting word that we have a problem, took chip samples to the S/W rep. and blamed the problem on delamination of the wood. That of course protects each of them, perhaps. I don't know if moisture meters were use at this point, but I have my doubts. And not sure of the dry down time after the wash. Not sure I'd get a real accurate answer if I asked. Down here in So. Ark we have our humidity and if memory serves me right we had a shower or two during the work, this was spring of '09, but even if we did I wouldn't know if any wood was exposed. By the way this is not my residence but a rent house. Worst areas are heavily exposed to sun and heat, but cooler,shadier areas also have problems, but to a lesser degree. I have attached photos showing the paint turning loose from the wood. One thing I noticed is on a couple of pics it appears some top coat paint worked under the primer indicating it had already started to lift on those particular ones, perhaps. Also, took some macros of some samples. The areas with some tinge is what the S/W rep. says is wood fibers but he says every thing is a delam. problem. I have my doubts. Anyway thanks to all for your interest. Del P.
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New exterior paint coming off-imgp6187-2.jpg   New exterior paint coming off-imgp6188-1.jpg   New exterior paint coming off-imgp6189-1.jpg   New exterior paint coming off-imgp6239-2.jpg   New exterior paint coming off-imgp6240-2.jpg  

New exterior paint coming off-imgp6242.jpg  
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Old 09-14-2010, 10:55 AM   #6
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New exterior paint coming off


from the pics it looks like the primer just never bonded properly - thus anything put on top of the primer is going to come off of course. As far as delamination goes, I'm not an expert with regards to delamination, but I just don't see it. As far as I know, delamination is more prevelant in woods that are actually laminated together (like plywood), I don't see that whatsover in your pics - maybe someone else here could give you more info on delamination and if that could actually be the cause, but from what I see I don't buy it. From what I see I think the problem comes simply down to the primer not adhering, and I'm leaning towards moisture being the culprit there. Even if the wrong primer was used I would still expect to see it bond better than what those pictures show. A moisture meter should have definitely been used before a big job like that was undertaken to ensure the moisture content of the wood was within acceptable levels. The only thing you can really do now is go back to square one..sand, scrape, clean, prime, paint. Hopefully the contractor will stand behind his work and help you out on the job. I would still insist that a rep from SW come to the jobsite..

good luck..
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Old 09-14-2010, 04:51 PM   #7
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New exterior paint coming off


Looks to me like you got ripped off by a negligent contractor and are getting the run around from the paint store as well. I would get in touch with a SW manager and have them come out and look at it. Make sure it is a manager or better.
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Old 09-14-2010, 05:11 PM   #8
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New exterior paint coming off


What did the wall look like before the power washing? Some of the pics look like you took paint off to bare wood. Was the old paint coming off in sheets like this too? If so, you might have a moisture problem in the wall that pre-dates the contractor.... and if that's true they should have pointed this out before starting to spend billable time on the job.
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Old 09-14-2010, 05:20 PM   #9
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New exterior paint coming off


Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisn View Post
Looks to me like you got ripped off by a negligent contractor and are getting the run around from the paint store as well. I would get in touch with a SW manager and have them come out and look at it. Make sure it is a manager or better.
That is my opinion about this too. I can say that we have never had an issue like that and if we did we would be more than glad to resolve it. I can also say that we use SW on a regular and have had no issues with there products, I don't believe its the product. I believe its the application and prep. A combination of moisture and improper prep. The contractor should be the one to go to the job site with the SW rep. I know my SW rep will go out of his way to work with us or come to a job site if we had something in question in regards to there product. If the contractor is legit he would fix his craftsmanship, especially only being a year old.
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Old 09-14-2010, 05:39 PM   #10
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New exterior paint coming off


Chrisn,, are you saying its probably not moisture, or that it could be but contractor should of picked up on it before painting. If I didn't know better, I would of thought that was my in law's house.... thanks for the info
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Old 09-14-2010, 05:40 PM   #11
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New exterior paint coming off


Like housepaintingny, I agree with the idea too IF the prior paint was holding ok but just at the end of its expected life. Need answer to that first, before really drawing a conclusion.
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Old 09-14-2010, 05:58 PM   #12
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New exterior paint coming off


The old paint may have been holding and recently let go. Causing the new paint to come off as well, if the old paint was as thick or thicker than the edge of a dime the house should have been stripped, but when stripping a house is suggested to most home owners from my experience they don't want to pay the extra to have it stripped as stripping a house is very labor intensive and costly. It is really hard to tell from photos exactly what happened. It may even be an internal moisture problem or it could be that the old paint let go or it wasn't prepped properly or it was painted while the wood contained a 15% moisture content or hire. Either way the contractor should contact his rep and the two of them should evaluate your property to come to some sort of answer for you.
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Old 09-14-2010, 08:34 PM   #13
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New exterior paint coming off


As a paint store manager, here's the tough part. 90% OF THE TIME, PAINT FAILURE IS BECAUSE OF HUMAN ERROR. So it's tough to have a paint store guy like me go out to your house and have to explain to you that your painter sucks, and then have the painter, who buys over a hundred gallons a month, get pissed off at you and shop somewhere else. you understand where we paint store guys have to walk a fine line? If there is a product failure however, I still have our rep come out and look at the house. usually, it should be taken care of fairly soon. IF NOT, I give new material free of charge to the homeowner. the company will reimburse us later.

First thing I would do is have a rep out. If they are a good paint store, they will be on it! And, it's always better anyways to have the paint company say it was human error rather then the paint store guy (Like me). Then it doesn't make the salesman look bad, and have the painter pissed at him. Because YOU KNOW, the painter is going to say he did EVERYTHING RIGHT, it wasn't his fault, it was the paint's fault. yada yada yada!!!!!!!!
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Old 09-14-2010, 10:48 PM   #14
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New exterior paint coming off


Yes, the paint was in bad shape before this work was done. We were assured cleaning, removing loose paint, which was quite a bit, and smoothing the paint that stayed behind by sanding would be sufficient. The paint store manager is the one that is saying all is well with the paint and application, but the problem is the "delamination" of the wood. That takes the responsibility away him and his valued customer, the contractor. I probably need to get an independent, unbiased third party analysis/inspection done if it comes down to some sort or arbitration. But you guys have been helpful. Thanks
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Old 09-14-2010, 11:17 PM   #15
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New exterior paint coming off


It appears the primer lifted from the wood being wet, then dried causing the small check/cracks you see. This is the water escaping through the cracks.

Water has also lifted the big blisters of old paint along with the new. This is from injecting water behind the old paint scab where it wet the wood and lifted the old scab. (Which wasn't feathered or filled).

I don't see any wood on the paint lifted. Poor surface prep with no evidence of sanding or filling anywhere, including the first picture of the open recessed nail head hole. I've gotten blisters exactly like those in the third picture from too much water while thinning the latex paint before spraying.

"we had a shower or two during the work," --------- that is it! And the time waiting after pressure washing. One or the other, or both.......

Gary

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