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Old 11-07-2011, 08:27 PM   #16
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NEW DRYWALL, new addition, Need Primer


Your vocab and knowledge seems to indicate your a general contractor. I can appreciate that, but don't sell yourself off as a knowledgeable painter. The above posts regarding primer are gobbledygook, and as a man with about 25 years of day in day out experience, I find them hard to understand. Where do I find fault: Yours in red, mine in black.
You don't HAVE to prime. Priming can accomplish several things, but make sure you need to accomplish those things that your cover coat can't accomplish before you pay for primer and do the labor.

You do "have" to prime. Finish is not formulated to "penetrate", not "key", into bare drywall. It will not bond, even when rolled. Primers penetrate.

For example, if you are going to apply 2 coats of decent quality flat paint over new drywall, I would probably not bother priming. The first coat of good quality flat paint is basically your primer, and you have no sheen issues.
There generally are no sheen issues with flat to begin with.

Even with good quality eggshell paint, 2 coats right over drywall might work fine. Again, the first coat is essentially a primer.

Wrong. This is where you will have sheen issues. If the first coat of eggshell is used as a primer, the bare sheetrock will draw the sheen out of it, leaving it less than an eggshell. The second will consequently be called upon to finish the sealing job and it itself will sacrifice some sheen, leaving the final finish with a less than perfect sheen. I've learned this through my own work and from doing experimental test samples, something I do fairly regularly.

They sell primer as saving you money, but that is not necessarily the case. Let's say you're painting a 16 x 13 bedroom with 8 foot ceilings. That's about 460 sf, so you'll need 2 gallons of paint for 1 coat. You will also need 2 gallons of primer. If the primer is $20 and the paint is $40, that will cost you $120. Now if you want to put on 2 coats of just the paint, that will require 3 gallons at the same cost of $120.

This makes no sense. Since when are paint companies interested in you saving money. They sell primer because it is the fundamental element of any paint system. One prime, two finish on bare substrates has been the industry standard forever. There are exceptions, and I don't acknowledge or include the "paint and primer in one" hype.


With good quality flat paint, you will be fine. In fact, in terms of color, you'll be better off because you just put on 2 coats of exactly the same color, for the best in hiding and covering. In fact, quite frankly, you can often put a good quality flat paint right over drywall in 1 coat and have it come out fine (my experience is mostly with SW SuperPaint in this regard). The paint manufacturers do not want you to consider this, of course. Today's high quality paints are better than old ones - and you can apply them generously if you like since they are thicker. You can roll a gallon to 320 sf, for example, instead of 350-400 sf.

You're clearly not a paint expert, nor am I, in all honesty. But, to tell a noob, as you call them, that one coat of any flat over bare drywall is fine is clearly indicative of a get er done mentality, and that is frowned upon by the pros here. One coat coverage is a hype like paint/primer in one. I have never found a paint where color and sheen fully develop with one coat, even Aura, and most especially over bare drywall.

When different areas of drywall (paper, joint compound, etc) have different porosities, you usually want to correct that first. This is more an issue with putting on eggshell or satin paint with the finish coat (I count Aura and Duration as eggshell - matte does not mean flat in this case.) For these and other cases, you really need a drywall sealer (the sealing part being more important than the "priming" part, depending on how you translate the meanings on primer labels.) And again, a coat of the actual paint might be able to act as that sealer.

??????? The difference between a primer and primer sealer is less about what it does for and to the sheetrock than what it accomplishes for the finish coat. Both will seal drywall, but which is chosen is a function of the selected finish. A straight primer will, again, draw sheen from the finish, whereas a primer/sealer will not. Generally, I think it's just easier to not worry about which sections of the new drywall will or will not present a problem and just prime the whole damn surface.
Of course there are texture issues as well. This is especially true when a thin coat is sprayed on (even in flat paint). If you can see through to the texture difference between the drywall paper and the taped and mudded seams, it has not been done right and you can tell a primer (or even a base coat of finish paint) has not been used.
Again, ??????. What does this mean; you can tell a primer (or even a base coat of finish paint) has not been used.? If it hasn't been coated with primer or finish, what has it been coated with? The issues you are talking about are generally caused by not priming, the very same advice you suggest OP doesn't need to worry about. I generally don't, and can't really, short of horrendous drywall work, determine what a ceiling is going to look like until the prime and first coat of finish are applied and dry. I stick to the tried and true, by the book, method of doing projects and rarely do I ever have issues.

Using finish as a base coat is a flawed shortcut. It's been discussed here a few times, and it's been unamiously frowned upon. In spite of what paint companies promote as paint/primer in one, it's not a generally accepted practice, and as pros we can't recommend it. Ben Moore advertises Aura as such, but the tech hotline will tell you no, you have to prime. It's marketing hype. There are a lot of things I do that experience as a pro allows me but that I can't recommend others do. I don't relish going after you here, and your opinion is certainly welcome. I just wish you wouldn't approach other's advice so dismissively and assert yourself as an authority, because you're not.
Joe


Last edited by Gary in WA; 11-08-2011 at 08:26 PM. Reason: removed section as per forum rules.
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Old 11-07-2011, 08:59 PM   #17
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You do "have" to prime. Finish is not formulated to "penetrate", not "key", into bare drywall. It will not bond, even when rolled. Primers penetrate.


No, you don't HAVE to. Paint will bond to drywall. Penetrating is great and desirable. But if you don't use a primer, your paint job will not necessarily fail as you guys are suggesting. There are many many paint jobs that I have seen that homeowners have done without priming that have held up just fine for the useful life of the wall. To suggest that these paint jobs WILL fail is silly and wrong.


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There generally are no sheen issues with flat to begin with.


That's what I said.

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Wrong. This is where you will have sheen issues. If the first coat of eggshell is used as a primer, the bare sheetrock will draw the sheen out of it, leaving it less than an eggshell. The second will consequently be called upon to finish the sealing job and it itself will sacrifice some sheen, leaving the final finish with a less than perfect sheen.
Maybe, maybe not. Sometimes it looks fine.


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This makes no sense. Since when are paint companies interested in you saving money.
They're not, that's what I said. They're interested in selling product.

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They sell primer because it is the fundamental element of any paint system.
No, they sell primer because they make a profit by doing so. You don't seem to understand basic business principles very well.

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One prime, two finish on bare substrates has been the industry standard forever.
Yes, and at one time so were 1" mortar and lathe under tile, plaster on walls, and sawing wood with hand tools. History is not really the point, is it?

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I don't acknowledge...the "paint and primer in one" hype.
Read up on Direct To Substrate products.


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But, to tell a noob, as you call them, that one coat of any flat over bare drywall is fine is clearly indicative of a get er done mentality
Not AT ALL what I said. Shame on you.

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I have never found a paint where color and sheen fully develop with one coat, even Aura


Keep up with your experiments. Flat "sheen" does not need to "fully develop" really, does it? Aura is not flat. There are certainly times when 1 coat of a high quality flat paint going over paint in good condition and not drastically different color looks perfectly fine. Obviously candy apple red and canary yellow don't count.


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Again, ??????. What does this mean; you can tell a primer (or even a base coat of finish paint) has not been used.? If it hasn't been coated with primer or finish, what has it been coated with?




I have never been paid to do a paint job and neglected primer over bare drywall before the finish coat. That's because I'm being paid for a certain quality and a certain assurance of service. So when I say "I would do" such and such, it's a figure of speech, meaning I'm talking homeowners who might do their own painting. While I would never do this in a customer's home, I've done it at certain times in places I've lived, and I've seen many many examples of primer not applied to drywall before painting, and those finishes have come out perfectly fine. I've also seen many many examples of neglecting priming, and have the paint look or perform terribly.

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There are a lot of things I do that experience as a pro allows me but that I can't recommend others do.
I agree. And in a similar vein, there are a lot of things that I won't do as a pro, but I can recommend others do. Painting is not electrical, structural, or plumbing. No one is going to get hurt, and homeowners don't have to buy into industry hype.

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I just wish you wouldn't approach other's advice so dismissively and assert yourself as an authority, because you're not.
Interestingly, I might say the exact same thing to you.

Last edited by Gary in WA; 11-08-2011 at 08:29 PM. Reason: removed as per forum rules.
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Old 11-07-2011, 09:33 PM   #18
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You do "have" to prime. Finish is not formulated to "penetrate", not "key", into bare drywall.
While you're considering the penetrating vs. keying idea, consider these 2 things.

When you apply a thinset mortar adhesive to bare drywall, why do you first "scrape" the thinset across the surface firmly with the flat part of the trowel, before spreading and leveling the thinset with the notched end? As you do this, what is occurring?

When exterior house painters applying paint to a previously painted wood sided house with a sprayer, why do they go to the trouble of brushing the paint afterward?
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Old 11-07-2011, 10:00 PM   #19
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Jeff, I don't know what kind of gc your are or what the quality of that work is, but I can tell your a ----. You'll recommend that someone here do something you would never do on a customer's job. You admit that by not priming the results could go either way, it's a crapshoot. Is that the kind of advice you would expect or appreciate were you a newbie going to a forum of pros. I can tell you that my results don't go either way. And, yes you did tell a noob that one coat over bare drywall will be fine. You said that one coat of flat over bare drywall should be fine, then you say that one coat can look pretty bad, which is it? Don't confuse my inability to suffer fools with anger, I'm not angry. But, I'm tired of picking your points apart, though much remains unsaid. I offer my advice to those who know little to nothing about paint/painting. I think my term of service and dedication to its pursuit allows me that privelege. My "authority" at this is conferred to me by my peers, the other pros who value the soundness and accuracy of my advice, which establishes my credibility with the true beneficiaries of this forum, the DIY'er. My authority has its limits. Who is an absolute, all knowing, total authority on every aspect of their trade? I have enough roofing/siding experience to make a buck, but I would never go into the roofing forum and even consider challenging a day to day pro. It's called deference, probably a word you've never heard. It's also called respect. It's for this reason I think you're a relatively young guy, as deference and respect for the most part have disipated with the old school. I'm tired of you, and arguing with you. And you've accomplished that all in one night.

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Old 11-07-2011, 10:12 PM   #20
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While you're considering the penetrating vs. keying idea, consider these 2 things.

When you apply a thinset mortar adhesive to bare drywall, why do you first "scrape" the thinset across the surface firmly with the flat part of the trowel, before spreading and leveling the thinset with the notched end? As you do this, what is occurring?

When exterior house painters applying paint to a previously painted wood sided house with a sprayer, why do they go to the trouble of brushing the paint afterward?
I'll entertain this one last point, because here you are showing your paint ignorance perfectly. Firstly, this is not a masonry forum, and what they do with thinset has no bearing on what painters do with paint. Secondly, when a surface is sealed, as is when previously painted, there is no need to backroll/brush over any sealed surface. For whatever reason they may do that, it has nothing to do with bonding. It will be the prior sanding, use of bonding primer, or a bonding finish that will create the bond. When you stain a bare deck, or siding, the first coat, no matter how applied, must be back brushed to promote penetration, it must be brushed into the pores/grain. The second coat doesn't require such and can be applied in whatever fashion you choose, and depends on the final applicator texture you prefer. Maybe the guys who backbrush siding want/need a handbrushed look. A sprayed finish can not be touched up by brush.

Somehow, probably fault of my own, this got posted on the wrong thread, I think. The mods are rewriting history and editing out much the evening's conflict. By tomorrow, none of this will have happened and we'll all be a happy family again.

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Old 11-07-2011, 10:15 PM   #21
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You admit that by not priming the results could go either way, it's a crapshoot.
Something that can have 2 different outcomes does not make it a "crapshoot". Listen carefully to what I'm saying. You guys are saying if you don't prime, the paint job will fail. You're wrong. It won't necessarily fail, and it won't necessarily look bad.

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Is that the kind of advice you would expect or appreciate were you a newbie going to a forum of pros.
Exactly. I'd want some relief from industry hype, and some relief from the "it's always been done this way so do it this way."

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I can tell you that my results don't go either way.
I believe that. And it also takes more time and costs more money. Before a homeowner spends the time and spends the money, they should know the facts. You are not telling them all the facts, nor do you have the entire world's experiences stored in your head. You're telling absolutes based on incomplete experience.

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And, yes you did tell a noob that one coat over bare drywall will be fine.
No, I never said anything that simple.



Let me say again, it's quite simple. Putting a high quality flat paint directly over drywall without primer will not necessarily look bad and will not necessarily fail. In fact, in many cases it will be fine to the satisfaction of many homeowners. This is simply fact, since I know many homeowners who have done this and are satisfied with it after many years.



And it is true that failing to use a primer on drywall will not necessarily lead to failure.

Last edited by Gary in WA; 11-08-2011 at 08:34 PM. Reason: as pe forum rules.
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Old 11-07-2011, 10:34 PM   #22
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Secondly, when a surface is sealed, as is when previously painted, there is no need to backroll/brush over any sealed surface. For whatever reason they may do that, it has nothing to do with bonding.
That's incorrect. Just because it's "sealed" does not mean it's flat at teh micro level. (for sake of argument, we'll call something like a glossy polyurethane finish "flat" at the micro level. Ironically "flat" paint is very unlevel, and glossy paint is very "flat"). With wood siding, there are small nooks and crannies that do not get paint fully into them from spraying. You can visualize this at the macro level when thinking about spraying something like trim that has indentations from the routed pattern. Spray it from one angle and the paint doesn't get fully into the seems. Now think smaller, and something similar happens when spraying exterior wood siding. You can't see it, but brushing does help the paint get down into the tiny nooks and crannies better. The more it gets into the little nooks and crannies, the better the final coat will bond to the complete surface.

This doesn't mean the coating will "fail" if it's not backbrushed. Spraying might be fine. The more nooks and crannies there are, the more backbrushing might help.

This is similar to the reason paint adheres to a flat undercoat better than to a glossy undercoat. Sanding a glossy finish creates more nooks for the finish paint to bond to. Here's a microscopic view of the paint surface that was attached to a wood substrate.

http://www.inspectapedia.com/exterior/paintchip1.jpg

Last edited by Gary in WA; 11-08-2011 at 08:40 PM. Reason: as per forum rules
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Old 11-08-2011, 07:48 AM   #23
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Wow...

hmm...interesting discussion.

Poor Chip asked a relatively simple question about brand names...not whether to prime or not to prime. In this instance, one would be doing a great dis-service to recommend a primer NOT be used...and he's already on board with using a primer.

Chip, don't be confused with this on-going discussion. Prime. I agree with the one responder that said to use a bonding type primer if you're going over both bare drywall and painted plaster. Typical PVA drywall primers are fine for drywall, but not so fine on other substrates. The more expensive bonding primers (Kilz Premium, Bulls-Eye 123, etc.) can be used on both and provide really good results. Priming does so much more than just provide a first coat of product.

But let me address the suggestion that priming may not be necessary since some here apparently need to defend that position...Primers may contain the same components as finish products (acrylic or vinyl resin, pigment, solvent) - but not necessarily in the same ratio as a finish. For example, the pigment to vehicle ratio (PVC) is lower in primers than in finishes - which is the reason primers don't seem to hide as well - hiding has nothing to do with sealing or limiting the level of porosity in drywall - even with that, the types of pigment differ slightly from that of a finish coat (less prime pigments). Also, while the general description of resin may be the same as finishes (acrylic, vinyl, vinyl-acrylic, PVA), that doesn't always mean the specific resins are the same...currently there are over 100 different type of acrylic resins available to manufacturers, and each behaves in a slightly different way. One may be very tough and durable, necessary for good washability and stain & burnish resistance of finish products, while another may be softer, slower drying, more thermoplastic, etc. all of which will do a better job penetrating a porous surface and binding in the dusty remnants of sanded drywall - all the while providing a semi-sealed surface (foundation) that provides much better hold out of finish products so you can fully enjoy all the benefits of what the finish is actually supposed to do.

Having said all that...yes, a flat wall paint could be used on bare drywall without the use of a primer - and with proper surface prep, you shouldn't have a problem with adhesion - but you'll never realize the extent of the benefits of a quality grade finish (washability, stain resistance, mar & burnish resistance, hold out, etc.) without the use of the proper primer...and this premise is supported by virtually every paint manufacturer on the planet.

Never use a primer as a finish coat...and never use a finish coat as a primer. They are constructed to do different things...and as long as I'm already on my soap-box, walk away from these products that claim "Paint & Primer" in one. This is plain and simple marketing BS targeting products to the ignorant - or lazy - or corner cutting hacks within this industry.

Chip, take the advice of the serious responders here at this site...While many people have their personal favorites in terms of brand names, you may want to consult with your local independent paint dealer for his or her recommendation of product as well....Good luck.

Ric

Last edited by ric knows paint; 11-08-2011 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 11-08-2011, 10:27 AM   #24
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Rick, thanks for the informative post. I would disagree however with your assertion that a flat finish will be fine over bare drywall. I've had far too many experiences with finish lifting off of sheetrock painted in this way. Over the years I've known and worked with many that do it. When you say "proper surface prep" of bare drywall, other than eliminating sanding dust, what does that mean? The inability of finish to adhere to bare drywall has been something I've been told for years, by contractors and paint co reps alike, and that has been proven by experience. If it's a matter of a select few products that will, then we should say so. I certainly haven't worked with all products, but I've seen it occur with a variety of those I have.
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Old 11-08-2011, 10:31 AM   #25
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Rick, thanks for the informative post. I would disagree however with your assertion that a flat finish will be fine over bare drywall. I've had far too many experiences with finish lifting off of sheetrock painted in this way. Over the years I've known and worked with many that do it. When you say "proper surface prep" of bare drywall, other than eliminating sanding dust, what does that mean? The inability of finish to adhere to bare drywall has been something I've been told for years, by contractors and paint co reps alike, and that has been proven by experience. If it's a matter of a select few products that will, then we should say so. I certainly haven't worked with all products, but I've seen it occur with a variety of those I have.
Oh come on! We both know that if you use Behr Ultra Premium Paint with Primer, it will be fine!
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Old 11-08-2011, 10:50 AM   #26
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I probably mis-lead by that statement - I really didn't mean that there were cases where it'd be OK to not use a primer on bare drywall, my point was there would be no incompatibility between a latex finish coat and drywall. The problem is, as I'm sure you're aware, is that finish paints are a pretty delicate blend of components. There is just not enough resin in a finish product to bind all pigment (primary & secondary) PLUS incorporate into the film any sanding dust which absorbs resin just as pigments do...If there were enough resin to absorb this dust and still provide good adhesion to a porous surface, you'd no longer have a flat paint. You'd have a more expensive "sheened" product (since resin is one of the more costly components), that'd dry streaked and blotchy, and be incapable of hiding drywall seams. To create an acceptable finish appearance, using this ridiculous system, would require far more coats than 1 coat primer followed by 1 or 2 coats finish.

Sorry for the confusion...I think we're more in agreement than I may have indicated in the earlier post.
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Old 11-08-2011, 11:57 AM   #27
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I'm not a pro, just a DIY type but found that if I don't prime when should, I'm gonna have problems. Conversely, if I prime whether I need to or not, I don't have problems. My relatively unimaginative solution is the rule that if it gets painted, it gets primed.... As a DIYer my time is pretty much worthless so that's not an issue. Good primer, I like Glidden Gripper, is under $20 and good paint is around $40 but I don't need to do it for a looong time.
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Old 11-08-2011, 01:46 PM   #28
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I have "cheated" by using a flat paint as a primer........I gotta say, #1 I felt bad doing it but was instructed to do so by the GC, and #2, the finish just didn't look good to me.......maybe to the GC it was acceptable, but not to me.
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Old 11-08-2011, 02:20 PM   #29
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I have "cheated" by using a flat paint as a primer........I gotta say, #1 I felt bad doing it but was instructed to do so by the GC, and #2, the finish just didn't look good to me.......maybe to the GC it was acceptable, but not to me.
My house was originally finished in this way. Then a lot of it was wallpapered, and the rest left that way. You can imagine what a nightmare removed the wallpaper was, and the old painted areas chip off with heavy bumps.

I appreciate the discussion, however. I'm finishing my first fairly serious "studs to finished" bedroom repair over the next 10 days, and I'm glad the purchase of good primer and good paint were money well spent.

Cheers all
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Old 11-08-2011, 03:45 PM   #30
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To add to this discussion, if you really wanted to save a few bucks, tint the PRIMER, & apply ONE COAT of finish.......I would feel much more comfortable doing that as opposed to 2 coats of FLAT paint.

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