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Old 06-27-2008, 05:48 AM   #1
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major paint peel


Hi All,
I have posted about a paint problem I have had prior,so I need to start a new thread as this job has changed direction yet again and this problem drifts off previous posts.

Story so far,I done repairs to an old ceiling,cracks etc etc,put on two coats of undercoat and two coats of ceiling white,I had smoke stains bleeding through( or my paint coats failed) during the time of putting on these paints I encountered paint blisters,I fixed these up and basically each time I applied a coat of the above,small paint blisters, mainly in one area.Again fixed up, I applied one coat of Dulux preplock stain blocker it covered the bleeding through lovely ( to the guys on this site that helped me out with that one) no signs of any paint blisters.

I put on the final coat of the stain blocker,dried nicely,ceiling looked great, then I noticed one large blister,so ok I thought,clean it up,bog over as before, as the ceiling apart from the blister was ready for the ceiling white.

Well I have now scrapped about 4 feet along the ceiling and 2 across, not only is the undercoats etc I have put on peeling, but it is actually peeling the old existing paint off and taking the ceiling back to the actuall plaster,the scrapper just slides underneath and it all peels off.

So do I keep going untill I come across some stable ceiling,some of the areas on the side no longer peels off, or keep going untill all looks to be coming good then cut that section of plaster out and replace it.

From the looks of some black spots in the plaster there is a presence of mould which I suspect was from our old roof which probably leaked as no water pipes run in the area.But there again when I put the first coat of undercoat on it was in wet cold conditions and I have not been game enough to scrap a section of the rest of ceiling which looks real good in case I am at fault and it all over the ceiling.
I am now aware of temperature and paints.( again this site)

Some pics are attached any help would go along way,hope u get the general idea of what problem I have, I would prefer not to have to replace the whole ceiling as new cornices are up and bar this problem the room is ready for a paint job and for us to move back in.

Sorry for making this post the length of a novel

Thank you

Cart
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Old 06-27-2008, 06:12 AM   #2
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major paint peel


Replace the rock
...or over-rock it

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Old 06-27-2008, 06:17 AM   #3
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slickshift,
when you say
Quote:
Replace the rock or over rock it
would I cut out the bad section and replace that only or the whole ceiling and if i overrocked it I assume taking cornice off etc ie: put plaster on this plaster.

Thank you

Cart

Last edited by cart; 06-27-2008 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 06-27-2008, 06:40 PM   #4
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That's plaster? Not sheetrock?

In that case I'd consider simply over-rocking the whole thing

Removing the cornice is the least of your worries
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Old 06-27-2008, 09:57 PM   #5
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Cart:

What's above that ceiling? An attic? Another floor of your house?

If it's an attic, I'd get up in that attic and see what's above that spot. It could be a fan duct from a cooler part of your house that's got condensation dripping off it.

If it's another floor, then map out where the plumbing pipes come out of the walls and up through the floors.

Look at that first picture. It shows that the paint isn't peeling all over the ceiling, only in a roughly linear area. To me, that tells me the problem is associated with that area, not the paint you're using or the way you're using it.

I think you may have a cold water pipe over that spot on the ceiling that's dripping condensation onto the ceilng. That would explain why the paint keeps peeling off in that area. Cuz the plaster is wet there.
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Old 06-28-2008, 05:25 AM   #6
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Hi Nestor_Kelebay,
Quote:
What's above that ceiling? An attic? Another floor of your house?
No there is nothing like pipe work up there and a single storey house with no attic.

Quote:
Look at that first picture. It shows that the paint isn't peeling all over the ceiling, only in a roughly linear area. To me, that tells me the problem is associated with that area
I scrapped more today and got more paint off the actuall plaster,though the coats that I applied are peeling off easily. so to continue at present will mean scrapping all the paint off,repair the ceiling again and go through the same process and hoping all goes well.

So I am getting someone to quote me on putting in another ceiling hanging off battens over the existing one, as I think from what I am seeing on this ceiling, which is lath and plaster( its riddled with cracks ) I would only be patching it up as I basically did in the begining and due to a crook back I dont think I could put myself through with a lot of ceiling work again.

Thank you for the input all I appreciate your time and ideas

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Last edited by cart; 06-28-2008 at 05:28 AM.
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Old 06-28-2008, 02:37 PM   #7
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As others have suggested, you need to find out why the problem happened in the first place. If it was a leak in the roof or sidewall, that could explain why the problem is occurring on just part of the surface. Also, as others have suggested, the fix may require new sheetrock or plaster, but before you do anything more, find out what caused the problem, fix that, and then complete your project. For additional information, contact the paint experts at Fine Paints of Europe at 1-800-332-1556
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Old 06-28-2008, 03:24 PM   #8
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Yes, it looks like some sort of moisture issue in that area.
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Old 06-28-2008, 04:26 PM   #9
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just sticking my two cents worth in,I had a ceiling like that and didn't think their was any way of having a leak in it since their were no pipes in the area an it was a one story house.It took some looking but I found a vent pipe nearly six feet away leaking at the roof and running down the rafter to the ceiling.I was planning on tearing all the plaster ceiling out anyway so that just made it more worth the effort of tearing out almost 2 inches of plaster and wood what a mess but now the leak is fixed and new drywall ceiling is up still got to tape mud sand primer and paint but its a done deal so IMO that what you should do tear it all out find the leak and re rock it just my two cent worth though OH good luck
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Old 06-28-2008, 05:11 PM   #10
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Cart:

I agree with ClassAct. You say you don't have an attic. Sorry, unless you have a flat roof over that ceiling, you have an attic. Maybe some previous owners have plastered over the access panel to your attic.

Also, putting drywall over that problem area WILL NOT solve the problem. Right now the paint is peeling off because water is bleeding through the plaster, which is why paint won't stick in that area. Covering that part of the ceiling with drywall is only going to prevent the moisture in the plaster from evaporating...until the plaster is so wet that the water starts dripping into the drywall. When that happens, the problem will start over again.

From what I can see, your best bet is to cut through the plaster and tear it down IN THAT AREA ONLY. See what's above that spot and fix the leak.

The problem is that if your plaster is getting wet in that area, then your ceilng joists are getting wet in that area too, and I'd be concerned that there may be some associated wood rot of the joists. To check, use a StudSensor tool to locate the joists above the ceiling, and drill 3/4 of an inch into the plaster. Above that will be the joist. Then take another drill bit and drill into the bottom of the joist a bit and see what the wood cuttings look like. If they're yellow like new wood, you don't have a problem other than the water leakage.

Maybe fix the problem before you scrape and repaint again. There IS a reason why your paint isn't sticking, and it's not because of temperature or humidity. It's because you're trying to paint wet plaster.

Maybe try this to PROVE there is a water leak without cutting a hole: Go to Lee Valley and buy a cheap Hygrometer (which measures relative humidity). Tape some clear plastic over that whole area (and you may need to go far enough away so that the tape that holds down the perimeter of the plastic will stick to the ceiling. Before you finish taping the perimeter of the ceiling down, slip that hygrometer onto the plastic face down so that you can see what the reading is. Try and move it toward the area where the paint is peeling if possible, maybe push it in that direction with the tape of a tape measure. NOW, if the hygrometer reading gradually increases when the moisture is trapped behind the plastic, that is proof that the moisture level is increasing behind the plastic, and to me, that's proof that moisture is exuding through that area where the paint isn't sticking.

In the first picture, what is that circular area on the ceiling? Can you lift it a little to see what's above it?

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 06-28-2008 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 06-28-2008, 06:12 PM   #11
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Not seeing any water stains or paint bubbling, I am assuming it's not moisture
However, the tests for moisture are a very good idea in this case
It might be a water problem and simply not staining or bubbling
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Old 06-28-2008, 09:10 PM   #12
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Cart:

Maybe ignore my concerns about your ceiling joists rotting. I expect that the lath of your plaster would rot before the joists would, and if that were the case, you'd have areas of your ceiling plaster that would seem loose because of rotted lath.

Slickshift:

I know that if water leaks through a flat roof, then it will leave a black or brown stain on a ceiling from all the dirt in that water. I'm thinking that if the water is clean, like condensation forming on a cold water pipe or condensation or rain water dripping out of ceiling fan vent it might not leave much of a stain.
It seems obvious to me that the paint Cart is using and the conditions he's using it under aren't the problem because the peeling is occuring in only one area, and that area seems to be a straight line. That can't be a fluke. There has to be a problem with that plaster or above that plaster along that line.

Cart:
Even if you DO have a flat roof over that part of your house, there would still be enough space between your ceiling and your roof in which there may be a ceiling fan vent or even a dryer vent where rain water could be getting in and leaking out. Perhaps a previous owner, wanting to renovate a bathroom or kitchen, ran a cold water pipe OVER the ceiling and ran it down into a wall to provide cold water to a faucet or outdoor hydrant. Perhaps the problem can be solved with some pipe insulation. Before cutting open your ceilng (or drilling any holes in it) do the hygrometer behind plastic trick outlined in my previous post. That will confirm if there is any moisture coming through that ceiling, and that will tell you for sure if the problem you're dealing with is above the plaster or not. You need to know that much at least before you start cutting your ceiling open. It may still be a problem with the plaster in that one area.

Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 06-28-2008 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 06-28-2008, 09:17 PM   #13
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It does seem to be in a straight line doesn't it (pic#1)
Worth a check with a moisture meter or other tests/investigation
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Old 06-28-2008, 10:32 PM   #14
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Thanks All for the input,I am going to get into the roof and have a look in that area,no access cover inside so need to wait untill this wind stops to take a sheet of iron off.
Apoligies in regards to attic,I do have one.

Quote:
In the first picture, what is that circular area on the ceiling? Can you lift it a little to see what's above it?
That is a cover I put on the ceiling where the flue for the wood heater went,its basically held in by four screw and will be covered by an exhaust fan vent cover,that way if I want to reinstate the fire i just got to unscrew and put the flue back in.

The only place I can think of moisture getting into the roof(apart from a leak) is from the exhuast fan in the bathroom this is located about 10 mtrs away,unless the moisture from that is accumalating down to that one spot.

Again thank you all,you have given me many ideas and options,I would prefer to repair rather than hang another ceiling as if I batten and fix to the existing ceiling I need to remove the head unit of the aircon system as the new ceiling wont go in because of where the air con sits up close to the ceiling.

I will post back once I have found out what the cause is.

Cheers

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Old 06-29-2008, 12:02 AM   #15
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Cart:

Maybe get into that attic on a rainy day. It could just be a roof leak as was suggested earlier. Roofs have been known to do that.

Cheers.

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