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Old 06-11-2013, 07:59 PM   #31
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Lead Paint Discovered After Scraping: Uh-Oh.


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Originally Posted by ToolSeeker View Post
yea like getting lead from wiping your fingers across paint.

they make it sound like just seeing a PICTURE of lead paint will give you lead poisoning, that's the degree of hysteria on this.
Geez, how many of our older family members as kids in the 20s, 30s and 40s had nothing but metal toys painted with LEAD paint over red lead primer? their cribs even had lead paint not to mention sharp edges, no safety screens etc, gasoline was full of lead too, their homes and bedrooms were painted with lead based oil paint giving them not only the lead exposture but the fumes for days, and yet they survived and lived long lives and give birth to all of us sitting here today.

Lead is not some alien substance from mars it's a naturally occurring metal found all over the planet, just don't eat it and don't lick your fingers after soldering with it and you'll be fine.
Lead certainly is toxic, but then so is clorox, ammonia, drain cleaner, bug spray, suntan lotion, WD40 and all the rest of the chemicals and substances we use in the home every day, but the labels all say the same thing- do not EAT or DRINK, and wash your hands after use.

Anyone know the hairsprays used by most women, and some men have (or had) formaldehyde, the stuff used to embalm bodies and is extremely toxic? yet people spray that stuff all over their head every day and breathe in the fumes!

A spash of drain cleaner or lye getting in your eyes can cause blindness, that is worse than a little lead, and like the lead the precaution is- don't EAT or DRINK it, and wash your hands after contact, use sensible precautions when working with it but don't get PARANOID.

Where I work people are handling lead and it's alloys all day long, they go for periodic blood tests and have never had an elevated level, that's despite cutting, trimming, filing, drilling, bending, planing on a milling machine, handling, cleaning, polishing and soldering sheet lead and lead-tin alloys. They even periodically melt the scraps of the stuff in a small gas furnace and pour it into ingots.

I swear, we have the kind of paranoia and arguments in the ceramics trade over glazes, clay, and kilns and we have the same few percentage of people there who go way overboard on their fear and paranoia to the point where they can no longer function and give up the craft because they are absolutely convinced they'll die of lead poisoning from brushing a lead glaze on a vase with a BRUSH.


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Old 06-11-2013, 09:01 PM   #32
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Lead Paint Discovered After Scraping: Uh-Oh.


I have to agree about how overblown the whole "Lead Poisoned Society" has become. Even the "Lead Safety for Renovation, Repair, and Painting Course" that I was 'required' to attend in Alabama/Florida seemed like it was more of the result of asking a bunch of 4th graders how to reduce the exposure to lead than the result of a qualified panel of experts. I had many concerns about what was even addressed in this process:

1) After two cleanings on smooth flooring, if the 'test' swipe (basically a clorox clean-up wipe) was still darker than the base comparison (a white piece of paper) then it does not matter... you are done...

2) Making a hole smaller than 6 square feet does not meet the need for lead mitigation. So, if you are cutting air ducts 6" x 12" (well under 6 sq ft) nothing needs to be done. No matter how many holes you are cutting. This exemption, and all exemptions, do not apply to the window industry? I can only assume that there must have been some contractor involved in this process, but also that this same contractor had no clue as to how to remove a wood window (because most other windows would not apply) with a minimum of debris. At least the way the class was presented to me, it seemed as if they felt that wood window removal resulted in lead paint flying everywhere. Necessitating the need to require the installers to cordon off 20' outside in all directions, 10' inside in all directions, taping off all outlets, ducts, or any orifice and cutting off the a/c and securing the room with double sheets of plastic, evacuation of the home-owners and wearing hazmat suits and N100 respirators not to mention what was required for the disposal of said materials after each install. (Not a fun prospect in Florida in the summer).

3) The fine for a first time violation at the time was $70,000. But as of this post, there is no actual point of contact in my local area for inspections or enforcement.

4) I was born in 1962 and as you can imagine so were most of my siblings and friends, yet until this became an EPA mandate, I had never heard of this terrible scourge that was overwhelming this country that threatened to shut down any business that did not comply or had workers that were not trained and records kept. (Well, in the EPA's defense, I did have parents that did not allow me to chew on the window sills or lick the carpets) and yet we still live with a modicum of brain damage!

But I digress. Did I mention that Red Snapper season in Florida has been extended 14 days? Come on down and we'll have a great time!
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:11 PM   #33
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Lead Paint Discovered After Scraping: Uh-Oh.


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Save the panic for later.
Seems you did everything correctly, the respirator is a nice touch.
I am not going to blow sunshine up your you know what, say it is harmless.
I have gone through the 8 hour course and am certified and licensed to remove lead paint.

The big issue with lead paint is children, They stick things in their mouth. They find some lead paint on the wall chipping off and stick it in there mouth, lead is sweet tasting. They want some more of it and will continue to pick it off and eat it.
Is really easy for them because of their size and get lead poisoning, This is real life factual it happens way to much every year, but less each year because not often is lead paint used anymore, but it is still used.

An adult just needs a higher dosage to achieve lead poisoning, our instructor that also was a major commercial local painting company, he went to school to achieve teacher status, so he could teach his own employees.
In all his years, he knew one painter that had lead poisoning, and it was from years of painting and doing what you are doing with no respirator.

I would be very careful who you ask for advice locally and your actions, clean it up the best you can. You tell a city inspector about this and they will condemn your house as a toxic waste site. Charge you thousands of dollars to clean it up, same time the waste will just be dumped into a local dump.
The requirement is, you put the lead paint debris from demo into a plastic bag.
You then do a certain knot on that bag to close it up called a goose neck, then the knot tells the garbage man it contains lead and to not open it.
As they toss it in the city truck and use the crusher to compact the load and the plastic sack gets ripped open. ... yeah right.

According to my instructor, we still use lead based paint today in commercial applications.
The reason for the lead was they could make the paint last longer with the more lead that was added.
Old barns were very common to be red, not because it was a popular color, with red, they could add more lead to it and it would last longer then other colors.
San Francisco bridge was one example for lead paint today, painters 365 days a year minus Holidays, they use lead based paint and start at one end and by the time they get to the other end, is time to start over.
Elevator shafts in high rise buildings, we still use lead paint, just not allowed in residential.
Its called the Golden Gate

The sun setting in the west hitting the red lead paint makes it look golden.
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:44 PM   #34
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Lead Paint Discovered After Scraping: Uh-Oh.


The RRP regulations to me are pretty simple. Don't make dust, and if you do clean it up safely.
The details are guide lines to how to do this. Some are over blown no doubt, but safe practices have to be defined somehow.

I just don't think they are all that unreasonable. Or difficult. The gov says it will cost 15-20% more to comply on an average job. My first by the book, lead safe job cost more like 25% more. It was the exterior of a day care, in a converted 1920's house.

I don't even want to think about how many lead houses I scraped and power sanded with little more protection than a dust mask (If that). And yes, I'm still alive.

It's just not that big of a deal, or an expense IMO, to not take a chance of poisoning myself or others. I don't think anyone is saying lead poisoning is a myth, or that it doesn't happen to real people.
And if its superfluous in a given Situation, I just roll my eyes and put up the plastic. I mean, we have to wear seat belts too. And you aren't even allowed to smoke in restaurants. I can accept not being allowed to create poison dust how ever I want.
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Old 06-11-2013, 10:20 PM   #35
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Lead Paint Discovered After Scraping: Uh-Oh.


Have you taken the course??? If so, then it apparently does not apply to you as a painter as it does to others, like I said, those replacing windows. 25% increase in cost is not even close to some jobs, especially the wood window replacements I mentioned above. Try more like 200-400%. The steps I mentioned in my post apply to EVERY room. After replacing even one window in a room, all materials used then need to be 'goose neck tied' and disposed of in an EPA approved manner. Instead of a 15 minute window removal and replacement, you are talking about over an hour of prep, the short window R&R, then the clean-up and testing. Granted that not all jobs even fall into a lead abatement situation, but to think that it is a mere nuisance is naive. I left that course thinking I should invest in blue tape and plastic sheeting!
Done right, it changes doing a small 7 room, 15 window house from a half day job to a 4 day job costing 7 times the labor plus the expense of the blue tape, sheeting and disposal fees. Done correctly, none of the exclusion materials are to be reused from room-to-room, but must be disposed of as hazardous waste.
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:01 PM   #36
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The class I took was geared to painting contractors. So I don't know the margins on window replacement.

The first one of these jobs I did blew over budget and I lost a shirt sleeve (not the whole shirt).
Finding some efficiencies, and some more creative ways to deal with lead have helped me to trim these overages to manageable levels.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:53 AM   #37
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Lead Paint Discovered After Scraping: Uh-Oh.


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I did have parents that did not allow me to chew on the window sills or lick the carpets) and yet we still live with a modicum of brain damage!
Oh darn, mine let me chew the window sills, carpet, drink the drain cleaner, put those dangerous plastic bags over my head, stick my finger in the light socket, ride the hood of the moving car, open all the non safety cap pill bottles, and all that fun stuff and I'm still alive

Actually, I was just reminded of a rental house we lived in in Florida around 1969 that had a crazy electric system, I can remember a friend and I stripping and old lamp cord and plugging it in in this little room in the garage and touching the two wires together to make sparks, we'd do that all the time and it NEVER blew a fuse or anything!
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:57 AM   #38
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Lead Paint Discovered After Scraping: Uh-Oh.


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What, like the fact that you two are throw nonsensical information out there as scare tactics. Talk about making a molehill into a mountain.
For pete's sake, you're being ridiculous and putting words into everyone's mouth.

No one here is trying to scare ANYONE : why would we?? I work with computers, I don't sell radon mitigation systems. I have said multiple times, in this thread (I know you don't like to read science or fact but at least read what you're replying to), that I think most of the regulation and hysteria over lead and asbestos and radon is overblown.

Overblown does NOT mean that they are not AT ALL risks, it means they are EXAGGERATED. Lead paint is not going to come off of your walls and give you lead poisoning in the night like a bogeyman, it doesn't mean you should put it on your Cheerios. Radon in most homes is a non-issue, but if you're in a high-risk area should you ignore it? Educating people (at least, those that dont' childishly refuse to be educated, ahem) is not the same as fear-mongering.

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I am more afraid of a driver in my town running into me, as I cross the street, then living in a 75 plus year old home, that still has Asbestos on some of the duct work, no Radon mitigation in my basement, and Lead paint under the many coats of Latex.
So am I. So is everyone. Where in this thread did anyone say you had to be MORE afraid of any of this stuff than real-life day-to-day fears? I live in a 120-year old home with all of the same things you have, and asbestos siding to boot. Old homes generally don't need radon mitigation because their basements are so pourous, btw.

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Should I also repeat that I have lived through two Nuclear isotope releases, along with being born like most of us, while not only our country, but many others doing Nuclear testing, which the fallout from those went across the globe more than once.

We get bombarded daily by X-rays & Gamma Radiation all day long, work in offices that are so tight, that the air is toxic.
I can't imagine how any of that is relevant to the conversation. Again, just focusing on the radon argument for a second... if it increases your risk of cancer in ANY WAY and is preventable, how is it a bad to at least let people know? Yes, there are a million other things ALL AROUND US eVERY DAY that are most likely carcinogenic, probably even MORE carcinogenic than radon. But you can't control most of them. You can't avoid smog or pollution from cars, at least not reasonably. You CAN avoid radon on the off chance it's an issue in your home, so why wouldn't you want to reduce your odds of cancer from 35% to 34% or something? Sure it's a tiny amount, but it's still something, and for what, the cost of a frigging fan in your basement?

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Now we have two people on a forum, trying to state that everything we all have been doing, is wrong and we now need to listen to you two, than using our better judgement.
No one - not ONE PERSON here - said anything like that, and I personally resent the implication. You're being a paranoid delusional. I DO believe in education, and letting people use THEIR BETTER JUDGEMENT with all of the facts, not just some old sense of "I'm a man and these things don't hurt me." Similarly I don't think cigarettes should be outlawed, but I think people should know that they give you cancer. After that, it's up to them.

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Sorry, I am going to take my risks, and continue to live life like I have been, in my house with Radon, Asbestos, Lead, some mold in the walls, breathing heavy doses of Pet dander also.
Same here. But if someone asks me whether radon is a carcinogen, I'm not going to say "only if you're a wuss." If someone asks if lead paint is dangerous, I'm not going to say "only if you're a bad parent," I'd point them to actual facts and let them make their own INFORMED decision. How is that a bad thing? I have lead paint in my home, no doubt. I know the risks of that ( being childless, basically none), and am fine with those risks. If someone told me I had to get all the lead paint out of my house, I'd be whizzed off because it's unnecessary. But no one is telling me that, and no one is telling you to change the way you live.
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Old 06-12-2013, 09:29 AM   #39
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Lead Paint Discovered After Scraping: Uh-Oh.


Bob, you and wkearney are the one's running around like Chicken Little, telling everyone that they are going to fall over dead, the minute the walk into a building that has Radon, Asbestos or Lead paint.

Really, I have managed to live this long by using my own judgement, I really do not need those like you, telling me as if you are the government, that they know better than my own personal instinct.

If people stooped to you or the government, because you say so, no one would get anything done, along with die quicker.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:10 AM   #40
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Nobody's running around like chicken little. Unless you want to count your own behavior. It's you that's running around insisting there's nothing to worry about and that everyone else is out to get you.
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Old 06-12-2013, 10:52 AM   #41
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Lead Paint Discovered After Scraping: Uh-Oh.


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Bob, you and wkearney are the one's running around like Chicken Little, telling everyone that they are going to fall over dead, the minute the walk into a building that has Radon, Asbestos or Lead paint.

Really, I have managed to live this long by using my own judgement, I really do not need those like you, telling me as if you are the government, that they know better than my own personal instinct.

If people stooped to you or the government, because you say so, no one would get anything done, along with die quicker.
Look... you're either a brilliant troll or completely incapable of reading. Neither of us said anything of the sort, and I tried my best to outline that in my last post, long-winded though it was.

Since you're not reading my posts at all, I don't know why I'm even bothering to type this. Please continue doing whatever you want, as I have said at least 5 times.

To everyone else - educate yourself (please use science, not greg's gut instincts, to do so) and then make whatever decisions you feel are best for you and your family based on, you know, science.
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Old 06-12-2013, 11:59 AM   #42
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Nobody's running around like chicken little. Unless you want to count your own behavior. It's you that's running around insisting there's nothing to worry about and that everyone else is out to get you.
Excuse me. Sorry, but I am not the two getting my panties in a bunch over this.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:01 PM   #43
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Look... you're either a brilliant troll or completely incapable of reading. Neither of us said anything of the sort, and I tried my best to outline that in my last post, long-winded though it was.

Since you're not reading my posts at all, I don't know why I'm even bothering to type this. Please continue doing whatever you want, as I have said at least 5 times.

To everyone else - educate yourself (please use science, not greg's gut instincts, to do so) and then make whatever decisions you feel are best for you and your family based on, you know, science.
Bob, I stopped reading your posts after you kept going on about the dangers of being around stuff, that most of us have been around for over 40 years, and still show no signs of any cause from effect.

I would say that you and Kearney are the two making this more than it is.
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:28 PM   #44
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Bob, I stopped reading your posts after you kept going on about the dangers of being around stuff, that most of us have been around for over 40 years, and still show no signs of any cause from effect.

I would say that you and Kearney are the two making this more than it is.
Didn't do anything of the sort. Thanks for admitting you won't even read other people's opinions on the subject when trying to debate with them, let alone actual science. "Well, I'm fine" is not how statistics work. I'm in my 30's, therefore SIDS is not a real issue?
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Old 06-12-2013, 12:43 PM   #45
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Bob, you and wkearney are the one's running around like Chicken Little, telling everyone that they are going to fall over dead, the minute the walk into a building that has Radon, Asbestos or Lead paint.
There is big bucks behind the remediation movement, as dangerous as asbestos is, LEAVING IT IN PLACE INTACT but encapsulated and seld up is the best course of action, not pulling out walls and ceilings and contaminating everything, the street out front, the truck and the landfill too with it.
The paranoia had counties ripping out intact steam pipe coverings and the like in schools that had been there for decades, and no one will convince me that some plastic sheets ducttaped over the doorway, and a couple of hired goons working for some company are going to do every job perfectly 100% of the time or even care. They get their money for the job and adios to you, and you only HOPE they got it all and cleaned up 100% and didn't accidently drop a bag of the dust in your carpet while you were at work, and then vacuumed it up quickly so you wouldn't know.

Same with lead paint, instead of contaminating the whole room, the truck outside, the street and the landfill by removing it, you encapsulate it and paint over it or seal it up. If you have kids DONT buy that 1890 Victorian fixer upper house with the 37 layers of lead paint on everything!

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