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Old 03-10-2011, 09:20 AM   #16
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Latex over oil based paint?


You can apply a quality latex paint over an oil base painted surface without the use of primer if you prepare the surface properly. Sand the surface to dull it, clean the surface using tsp or similar, and make sure the surface is dry. A primer would promote adhesion, but if you dull the surface and clean it properly, then adhesion will not be a problem. You will need to prime any repairs made to the surface and make sure that there is no loose or flaking paint prior to painting.

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Old 03-10-2011, 09:30 AM   #17
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Latex over oil based paint?


Anectdotal. No offense, is your father a professional painter? I'm not talking about running a piece of sandpaper over a surface, like they do today, doing a "scuff". A "scuff" is something done between coats or on something where a bond can be assured without sanding. Unfortunately, a scuff is about all that's being done today. I've worked for a lot of painters over the years and had a lot of people working for me. Most painters, let alone homeowners, don't know what a proper sanding is or how to do it. A proper sand is akin to scrubbing the entire surface with a piece of 100 or 120 sandpaper, back and forth, up and down, with elbow grease. Guys scuff sand with 180 or 220. I hammer at this because proper sanding is required for any repaint, whether it's latex over latex or oil over oil, once a gloss finish is cured, it needs a good sanding to create a bond. I'm constantly doing jobs where sanding was neglected previously and suffering the headaches, so I know what your father went through. I go through it quite often, sadly. Most times, I'm following other pros, and it is the reason I'm there. You can tell it's been scuffed, some areas are bonded, most aren't. I worked on a crew once where a guy sanded three windows in less than two minutes, literally. I was in the room and I watched him. This was a "legitimate" company and the owner knew what was going on. I always have to follow my casual, but very experienced, guys around and have them sand further. I have to remind them to leave their regular everyday toolbox at home and bring the one for my job. If they haven't been out with me for a while, the first day is usually retraining day. I did a short stint once with a well known and established company, large crew. I was told to paint a door and window in an exterior basement stariway. There was mildew on them that looked like a velvet skin. I told the owner of the company, who had told me to do it, he told me to sand it to death and paint it. That's what I did. I can go on and on. That's why I'm here, to tell you. You tell me.

Last edited by jsheridan; 03-10-2011 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:42 AM   #18
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Latex over oil based paint?


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Originally Posted by jsheridan View Post
A proper sand is akin to scrubbing the entire surface with a piece of 100 or 120 sandpaper, back and forth, up and down, with elbow grease.
And I would elect to do ^that rather than painting on some primer. Why?

We can assume a given that no matter what the wall needs to be thoroughly washed. My choices are to wash wall then:

1) apply quality primer... then paint - or -
2) 'Proper Sand' entire wall, clean up dust, wipe down wall... then paint.

Why, in the name of pete, would I bother sanding?

Don't get me wrong. If there is a valid reason I'm up for hearing it.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:45 AM   #19
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Latex over oil based paint?


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And I would elect to do ^that rather than painting on some primer. Why?

We can assume a given that no matter what the wall needs to be thoroughly washed. My choices are to wash wall then:

1) apply quality primer... then paint - or -
2) 'Proper Sand' entire wall, clean up dust, wipe down wall... then paint.

Why, in the name of pete, would I bother sanding?


lol ...............i know right......bust ass sanding till fingers bleed then wash walls down or prime ??............

Last edited by Ole34; 03-10-2011 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 03-10-2011, 09:49 AM   #20
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Latex over oil based paint?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jsheridan
Anectdotal. No offense, is your father a professional painter? I'm not talking about running a piece of sandpaper over a surface, like they do today, doing a "scuff". A "scuff" is something done between coats or on something where a bond can be assured without sanding. Unfortunately, a scuff is about all that's being done today. I've worked for a lot of painters over the years and had a lot of people working for me. Most painters, let alone homeowners, don't know what a proper sanding is or how to do it. A proper sand is akin to scrubbing the entire surface with a piece of 100 or 120 sandpaper, back and forth, up and down, with elbow grease. Guys scuff sand with 180 or 220. I hammer at this because proper sanding is required for any repaint, whether it's latex over latex or oil over oil, once a gloss finish is cured, it needs a good sanding to create a bond. I'm constantly doing jobs where sanding was neglected previously and suffering the headaches, so I know what your father went through. I go through it quite often, sadly. Most times, I'm following other pros, and it is the reason I'm there. You can tell it's been scuffed, some areas are bonded, most aren't. I worked on a crew once where a guy sanded three windows in less than two minutes, literally. I was in the room and I watched him. This was a "legitimate" company and the owner knew what was going on. I always have to follow my casual, but very experienced, guys around and have them sand further. I have to remind them to leave their regular everyday toolbox at home and bring the one for my job. If they haven't been out with me for a while, the first day is usually retraining day. I did a short stint once with a well known and established company, large crew. I was told to paint a door and window in an exterior basement stariway. There was mildew on them that looked like a velvet skin. I told the owner of the company, who had told me to do it. When I asked what he wanted me do about it, he told me to sand it to death and paint it. That's what I did. I can go on and on. That's why I'm here, to tell you. You tell me.
I'll give you that it's anecdotal. 98% of what I see discussed is on here is.

I'll give you that he is not a professional painter, 100%. I'll be willing to bet that you do a lot of great work for nice homes. The reality of this area of the trades is it's filled with a lot of fly-by-night guys who do it as a passing time filler. If you're going to spend your day watching every guy on all your jobs, that's a waste of money if you can't trust them. Initially yes, but continuing - that's annoying.

I sand, clean, then prime before I paint on surfaces I didn't work on before or have patched. I am psychotic about my prep and get frustrated when someone else isn't correctly doing it... So that's why I will never be a painter - I wouldn't make any money. You are obviously more knowledgeable about the discussion as you're a painter... So it can be done, definitely. Would I do it, no. If I'm going to scuff and clean, the cost of primer is little compared to my time already invested.
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:09 AM   #21
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Latex over oil based paint?


Unfortunately CS, a large percent of this business, since it's so easy and anybody can paint, is filled by guys who were selling garden hoses last week at the store that sells Behr paint. It's not just your area, it's universal. Doing the proper prep to create a beautiful and lasting finish is where the bait gets cut.
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:18 AM   #22
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Latex over oil based paint?


I am afraid scuffing isn't enough when it comes to covering oil based paint. All you need to do is miss a spot or not scuff hard enough and you have peeling.
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:43 AM   #23
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Latex over oil based paint?


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I am afraid scuffing isn't enough when it comes to covering oil based paint. All you need to do is miss a spot or not scuff hard enough and you have peeling.



were also talkin about latex over latex..... the consensus her is that you have to make your fingers bleed sanding between coats of latex



I think today's painters feel a need to separate themselves from the pack an subsequently go overboard as a way of validating their
professionalism to HO'ers and in the process grossly inflate the cost per job and pass that onto the HO'ers as well............the fact of the matter is that painting is a trade that ANYONE can ''Physically'' learn in a short amount of time, not so with other trades so with that being said you can realize the pool of competition and the need to separate ones self from the rest..............that's fine just don't go makin **** up claiming to be superior......1 good sanding is all that is needed for latex on latex and i think were all grown up enough to know what a good sanding is and to the guy who said to sand and wash oil before applying latex over?? ........just prime it and save yourself the time an effort and in the end you'll put out a better product.



2 painters go to bid a door re-paint..............(I exaggerated a bit so you can get the point)



first painter:

-sand it down
-dust it down
-caulk it
-strain paint
-1 coat finish
-2nd coat finish

second painter:

-sand it down
-wash it with TSP and let it air dry for 24 hrs
-sand it down again then dust off
-tack cloth
-caulk
-let caulk cure for another 24 hrs
-strain paint
-first coat of finish
-24 hrs to cure
-light sand
-tack cloth again
-2nd coat of finish







both doors will look identicle when finished but door #2 will cost 3 times as much as door #1

Last edited by Ole34; 03-10-2011 at 10:49 AM.
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:59 AM   #24
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Latex over oil based paint?


OMG, I have been gone a couple of days and missed all this discussion.....


I will purchase a primer and use it before applying my latex. I will scuff, not sand till my fingers drop.......lol because I am lazy.....lol and then apply my latex paint.

I have heard that BM makes a good primer called Fresh Start. Maybe I will go with that.

Thank you everyone for all your help and great insight on different ways of doing something.

You guys are all awesome.
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Old 03-10-2011, 11:26 AM   #25
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Latex over oil based paint?


Ole, in the old days, everyone would have been closer to painter #2. When I was a kid, my father would wash all walls prior to painting. My mother still washes walls, but she doesn't paint. A lot of who a painter is is determined by who his primary influences were when learning. I started with my father learning prep at 10 or 12 and I was taught by those who were old timers then, not my father, but those he brought in, those he learned from. I do to this day most of what I was taught forty years ago. the painting trade goes way back far and wide in my family and I continue that, with some modern variation, but the basics are the same. It doesn't make me better, just different. A lot of today's painters don't have that lineage and are learning from those who don't either. The craft is going out of the business. I'm fortunate to have it. I get the results I get from the steps I take during prep, period, and that sells. If you like the results you get from the steps you take, work on brother. There's a market for painters of every skill level and approach. Here's my approach to your hypothetical door.
  • Degrease any obvious grime
  • remove hardware (gone by the wayside)
  • sand the door and dust (largely gone by the wayside)
  • prime, if necessary
  • caulk and putty, follow paint times specified (gone by the wayside)
  • first coat, follow recommended recoat times (gone by the wayside)
  • light sand, dust (gone by the wayside)
  • second coat
I have nothing to prove to anyone, nor am I pointing fingers at anyone. Everyone here is free to follow the advice they deem to be the most credible. Everything I do today is a result of a learning process. I don't know everything and never will, and I have learned from being a part of this forum. I didn't take your post as a snub toward me personally, but I am lumped in there. Apply what I said about my experience and background to others, they're probably just reflecting what they've learned as well, or what they think they know. We're just different.PS I have sanded my fingers raw, and no, door #1 and door #2 will not look the same.

Last edited by jsheridan; 03-10-2011 at 11:28 AM. Reason: Add PS
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Old 03-10-2011, 11:50 AM   #26
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Latex over oil based paint?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jsheridan View Post
    • Degrease any obvious grime
    • remove hardware (gone by the wayside)
    • sand the door and dust (largely gone by the wayside)
    • prime, if necessary
    • caulk and putty, follow paint times specified (gone by the wayside)
    • first coat, follow recommended recoat times (gone by the wayside)
    • light sand, dust (gone by the wayside)
    • second coat
  • ~.


agreed...........but back to the latex over oil i still say PRIME and be done with it..........im sure with enough prep you could get it to stick but why bother with all that mess and time...........and im still confused to the latex not adhearing to prior latex when not properly prepped........i could roll semi-gloss on a wall without sanding and that paint isnt going anywear so what makes a piece of wood trim any differnet?? both semigloss paint ....doesnt make sense to me.......
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Old 03-10-2011, 11:54 AM   #27
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Latex over oil based paint?


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I didn't take your post as a snub toward me personally, but I am lumped in there. Apply what I said about my experience and background to others.
no snub intended thats just how it is on these forums....we could have this exact same conversation in person and it would be normal without SNUB feeling .............just a normal conversation but the internet always twists stuff up or appears to
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Old 03-10-2011, 12:12 PM   #28
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Latex over oil based paint?


Firstly, words on a page lack facial expressions and tone of voice, so things that would be taken as a snub in writing wouldn't seem that way with the benefit those qualities. I've never snubbed anyone on this forum, and sometimes when I feel it might be taken that way, I'll use respectfully or such. Any sheen paint forms a bit of a "shell," the skin that does not absorb the next coat, unlike flat. The scratch from sanding gives it something to hold on to, instead of flat palm to palm, it's like interlocking fingers. The density of the substrate has a bit to do with it. Drywall is soft, plaster and trim are not. If you bang drywall, it absorbs the shock. I've seen plaster walls peel and chip, the paint absorbs most of the shock. I imagine if you could get an edge on a semi-gloss wall you could probably peel off a big sheet. I sand all walls because I like a clear, unblemished finish, not for adhesion, but I know that is taken care of as well. Any sheen needs abrasion to break the seal. Sanding also removes the surface of the old finish, the most oxidized and degraded part of the finish. Repectfully lol.
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Old 03-10-2011, 12:20 PM   #29
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Latex over oil based paint?


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were also talkin about latex over latex..... the consensus her is that you have to make your fingers bleed sanding between coats of latex
Ya that is not only excessive it is counter productive. Just clean, knock the bumps off the wall and paint. Anything you are spending that much time sanding should probably be skim coated anyways. And you can only sand latex so much anyways unitll you are into the drywall.
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Old 03-10-2011, 01:47 PM   #30
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Latex over oil based paint?


Quote:
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both doors will look identicle when finished but door #2 will cost 3 times as much as door #1
This is where I mention that almost all trade work isn't rocket science. You can buy a homeowner codebook for $17.99 at home depot and do your own electrical too. Now, when there is something weird or a guy's over box fill - great - it was in the book - find the page.

I would gladly pay JS to paint my door if he does it as he says. I respect the trade and it's skilled artisans (yes, artisan is my word and I'm sticking to it). I work in a trade, and debasing a skilled trade painter to a HO special isn't what I'm going to line up with. I see enough poor work to tell my painting job ain't going to be as good as a skilled painter at three feet but looks good at 6. I'll gladly pay for quality work if my budget needs it over time.

It's simply a matter of speed, quality and what you accept as "fine".

I simply cannot afford to pay a painter over time costs on personal time, so I save on labor and spend personal time to save an estimated 40% on most projects, or offset savings with better products. That or I trade work value with other people I respect - but that is a trade phenomena and less between HO friends.

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