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Old 05-24-2013, 02:10 PM   #1
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A Home Depot/Behr paint experience


I recently had an opportunity to use a Behr paint in a customer's home. I chose Behr Premium Plus Ultra, since it's their best interior paint.

The dining room was a deep maroon/red color, living room a pale beige, and kitchen pastel yellow.

My basic opinion of the personnel in Home Depot: not too bad in general. Some exceptions on both ends - some are virtually experts in their area, some are clueless, and most are somewhat helpful but misinformed or just not expert in some of the details.

On this day, unfortunately I got a clueless one. The dining room was going over new drywall, and I was priming it. Since the paint was so dark, I wanted to tint the primer. This guy told me primer couldn't be tinted. First he said his "computer" would not allow it if he punched in the UPC for the primer. Second he said there wasn't enough room in the can. I showed him the label that said the (Behr) primer could be tinted with up to 2 ounces of colorant and asked him if thought that was weird. He agreed it was strange, but insisted it couldn't be done.

Well, that was about as bad as it gets in my experience. Unfortunately there was no one else who I could switch to in the paint department that day in that store, so I drove 5 miles to the next Home Depot. This guy was much better. When he analyzed the color, the computer came up with 9 oz. of colorant. He told me he didn't want to add that much colorant for 2 reasons: 1, there wasn't enough room in the can, and 2, it would start to change the chemistry of the primer (a rather subtle but astute observation on his part). He offered to put in 2 oz. of colorant, or as a compromise to get the primer darker, to pour out a few ounces of the primer from the can and go to 5 oz. I liked this compromise and went with it. (The reason is, I wanted to see if I could go with 1 coat over tinted primer.)

Then we looked at paint for the living room. It gets more interesting as this ties in with our discussions on matte paint sheen and the "enamel" confusion. I was matching paint and had the chips I cut out of the old drywall (this was a partial re-drywall due to water damage.) I had to guess at the sheens of the paint. I guessed satin in the dining room, but matte for the living room.

So according to Behr's sheen chart, "flat/matte" is flat. They have another paint they call "Flat Enamel", which is basically their version of what we'd call Matte. However, I noticed another can on the shelf that actually said Matte. He had never seen that before, and it had the exact same model number. He said apparently it was just new terminology by Behr. So apparently they are understanding the issue and trying to get in line with market consensus, whereby "Matte" has some sheen to it.

(Currently on Behr's website, Matte is the flattest sheen offered for PPU. When you look at the list of sheens, Matte is not mentioned, but Flat Enamel is the flattest sheen.)

On to the painting. The colors matched very well (which is to say the Home Depot computer works, and the Behr colorants work.) The paint was quite thick - thicker than I expected. At least as thick as SuperPaint, for example. No spatter. The coverage of the maroon paint was surprising. It went on easily in 1 coat over the tinted primer. Granted it was a bit more colorant in the primer than might usually be used, but this paint was very close to covering bare white drywall in 1 coat (I put some on leftover drywall as an experiment.) Very impressive coverage. (Normally primers only need to be tinted in gray, by the way. Priming pink under red does little good, yet is exactly what most people end up doing. Sherwin Williams is very good about specifying a particular shade of gray primer to go under each of their deeper colors.)

For the other 2 rooms, I put 2 coats over bare drywall. (Note: Behr advertises PPU as "paint and primer in one", in other words self-priming over bare drywall.) Color-wise, it covered fine in 1 coat. It was only the flashing over joint compound that kept it from 1 coat. In other words, a flat could have covered in 1 coat. The solids/dry film thickness at 400 sf coverage was the same as Sherwin Williams SuperPaint at 1.6 mils, which is good. It's interesting that Behr also lists a film thickness of 2.6, which is very thick, at a spread rate of 250 sf/gal. This is kind of interesting because I think the paint is thick enough to achieve that in practice, if you want, resulting in extremely good hiding and coverage (at a higher material cost, but no extra labor cost.) In other words you can achieve double the coating thickness of a lesser but decent paint (say BM Ben, or SW ProMar 200) in half the time. Or spread Behr PPU at 350 sf, get a coat and a half of those paints, and thus achieve single coat coverage in some cases. (It's not quite that simple, but still...)

Overall I was impressed with the paint. I can tell that Behr, in line with the big pro companies, has improved their product line over the last however-many-years. I would not hesitate to recommend it to homeowners, at about $32-36 depending on sheen.

Anyone including Behr PPU as part of "big box paint" and calling all of it junk either hasn't used it or is spouting nonsense for some other reason. For a homeowner to know if he can trust a Home Depot associate to give him good advice is another matter.

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Old 05-24-2013, 02:29 PM   #2
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A Home Depot/Behr paint experience


I agree I've painted a ton of customer supplyed Behr paint and never had any problums with it.

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Old 05-24-2013, 02:34 PM   #3
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A Home Depot/Behr paint experience


Thickness actually means less coverage which means more product used per job. All the manufacturers seem to be leaning this way, at least Benjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams seem to be. 2 thin coats will always beat one thick one. I remember Promar 200 used to be like water but you could do 2 coats in some quite large rooms with one gallon. Now you are lucky to get half way around with your second coat.

I am glad you had good results with your Behr paint, but there are many, many horror stories out there of people not having good luck with it. I have seen some of it first had. Sagging paint, horrible coverage thick or thin and inconsistant color/sheen/thickness.
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:43 PM   #4
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A Home Depot/Behr paint experience


And I'm sure it had nothing to do with prep, sturing the paint and how it was applyed.
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:45 PM   #5
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A Home Depot/Behr paint experience


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Originally Posted by Matthewt1970 View Post
Thickness actually means less coverage which means more product used per job. All the manufacturers seem to be leaning this way. atleast Beanjamin Moore and Sherwin Williams seem to be. 2 thin coats will always beat one thick one.
Not sure what you mean here on any statement. By "thickness" do you mean where I referred to the paint as a "thick" paint? Or the mils thickness of the dried product?

I can't make any sense out of your comments at all really. Thickness has very little to do with coverage, other than how you apply it. It has to do with solids in the paint, and how much you can get on the wall without runs and with the desired texture. 1 gallon of anything = 1 gallon. But after application it's less than 1 gallon because of solvent evaporation. How much evaporates and how much remains on the wall? That's a key question.

1 gallon of Sherwin Williams SuperPaint (an expensive paint) covers 350 sf (let's say) with a 1.6 mil thickness. 1 gallon of Benjamin Moore SuperCraft (a cheap paint) covers 350 sf with a .9 mil thickness.

So when you say "thin" coat, what do you mean? A "thin" paint? Or putting it on "thin"? Because no, 2 thin coats of is not always better than 1 thick coat. It depends.

The real key is how much solid you really need on the wall, and how much cost and how much effort it takes to get there.

Let's assume that 1 coat of some paint isn't enough, but 2 coats is. That means that somewhere in the middle is enough. For example if 1.0 mil dried thickness doesn't cover, but 2.0 does, then in fact somewhere in the middle is the cutoff point. Maybe 1.6 mils would be enough. If one coat of a different paint does that for you, then that's all you need. There are other details of course, but these are the things you need to be thinking about to improve the effort and cost for a certain result.

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Old 05-24-2013, 02:54 PM   #6
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A Home Depot/Behr paint experience


Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthewt1970 View Post
I am glad you had good results with your Behr paint, but there are many, many horror stories out there of people not having good luck with it. I have seen some of it first had. Sagging paint, horrible coverage thick or thin and inconsistant color/sheen/thickness.
First, notice that I never said "Behr paint". There is no such thing as "Behr paint", just like there is no such thing as "Sherwin Williams paint", or "Benjamin Moore paint". Sherwin Williams is a company, SuperPaint is a paint. Behr is a company, Premium Plus Ultra is a paint.

If someone says "Sherwin Williams sucks", you can throw that comment in the trash because they haven't said anything. The same goes for "Behr sucks". I have not idea what they're talking about.

Also, my comments are relevant to May 2013. I have no idea what the paint was like 2 years ago, or what Behr Premium Plus is like today or next month. My comments refer to Premium Plus Ultra interior only.

Furthermore, a lot of the people who make complaints like that screwed up something else. The paint was left in the garage for a year with the lid half off, or they tried to thin it, or they didn't clean the substrate, or whatever.

Review comments you hear along with the detail and clarity of extra information provided. I provided plenty. "Behr paint sucks" provides zero. That's only a slight exaggeration of what most people say.

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Old 05-24-2013, 03:42 PM   #7
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A Home Depot/Behr paint experience


I really think a lot of paints get bad reviews by HO'a and pro alike because very few people actually apply a full coat of paint (generally 4mil wet)
Paints are different, but with most you really have to try hard to get it on that thick without runs/sags. When I first started checking wet mill thickness I was shocked at how much paint 4mil really is.
This is relevant to the 'one coat coverage' claims made by paint manufactures also. Generally, they are not making this up. The catch is that to get one coat coverage you must apply what they consider to be a coat, with most interior latexes this is 3.8-4 mil wet.
I've seen very few painters or DIY's coat that thickly. Also, few painters (residential) ever check there wet mills and therefore never really know how thick they are applying. You can go by footage to an extent, but this can be very misleading because of surface irregularities and the fact that square foot per gallon numbers given on the can make no allowance for material waste during application (the half quart soaked up by your roller, the paint coating the inside of the bucket, the paint you washed out of a brush)
In fact, if you are not getting less than the given footage, your probably not getting on a full coat.
It doesn't seem fair to judge any paint if its not applied like its designed to be.
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Old 05-24-2013, 05:38 PM   #8
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A Home Depot/Behr paint experience


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffnc View Post
I recently had an opportunity to use a Behr paint in a customer's home. I chose Behr Premium Plus Ultra, since it's their best interior paint.

The dining room was a deep maroon/red color, living room a pale beige, and kitchen pastel yellow.

My basic opinion of the personnel in Home Depot: not too bad in general. Some exceptions on both ends - some are virtually experts in their area, some are clueless, and most are somewhat helpful but misinformed or just not expert in some of the details.

On this day, unfortunately I got a clueless one. The dining room was going over new drywall, and I was priming it. Since the paint was so dark, I wanted to tint the primer. This guy told me primer couldn't be tinted. First he said his "computer" would not allow it if he punched in the UPC for the primer. Second he said there wasn't enough room in the can. I showed him the label that said the (Behr) primer could be tinted with up to 2 ounces of colorant and asked him if thought that was weird. He agreed it was strange, but insisted it couldn't be done.

Well, that was about as bad as it gets in my experience. Unfortunately there was no one else who I could switch to in the paint department that day in that store, so I drove 5 miles to the next Home Depot. This guy was much better. When he analyzed the color, the computer came up with 9 oz. of colorant. He told me he didn't want to add that much colorant for 2 reasons: 1, there wasn't enough room in the can, and 2, it would start to change the chemistry of the primer (a rather subtle but astute observation on his part). He offered to put in 2 oz. of colorant, or as a compromise to get the primer darker, to pour out a few ounces of the primer from the can and go to 5 oz. I liked this compromise and went with it. (The reason is, I wanted to see if I could go with 1 coat over tinted primer.)

Then we looked at paint for the living room. It gets more interesting as this ties in with our discussions on matte paint sheen and the "enamel" confusion. I was matching paint and had the chips I cut out of the old drywall (this was a partial re-drywall due to water damage.) I had to guess at the sheens of the paint. I guessed satin in the dining room, but matte for the living room.

So according to Behr's sheen chart, "flat/matte" is flat. They have another paint they call "Flat Enamel", which is basically their version of what we'd call Matte. However, I noticed another can on the shelf that actually said Matte. He had never seen that before, and it had the exact same model number. He said apparently it was just new terminology by Behr. So apparently they are understanding the issue and trying to get in line with market consensus, whereby "Matte" has some sheen to it.

(Currently on Behr's website, Matte is the flattest sheen offered for PPU. When you look at the list of sheens, Matte is not mentioned, but Flat Enamel is the flattest sheen.)

On to the painting. The colors matched very well (which is to say the Home Depot computer works, and the Behr colorants work.) The paint was quite thick - thicker than I expected. At least as thick as SuperPaint, for example. No spatter. The coverage of the maroon paint was surprising. It went on easily in 1 coat over the tinted primer. Granted it was a bit more colorant in the primer than might usually be used, but this paint was very close to covering bare white drywall in 1 coat (I put some on leftover drywall as an experiment.) Very impressive coverage. (Normally primers only need to be tinted in gray, by the way. Priming pink under red does little good, yet is exactly what most people end up doing. Sherwin Williams is very good about specifying a particular shade of gray primer to go under each of their deeper colors.)

For the other 2 rooms, I put 2 coats over bare drywall. (Note: Behr advertises PPU as "paint and primer in one", in other words self-priming over bare drywall.) Color-wise, it covered fine in 1 coat. It was only the flashing over joint compound that kept it from 1 coat. In other words, a flat could have covered in 1 coat. The solids/dry film thickness at 400 sf coverage was the same as Sherwin Williams SuperPaint at 1.6 mils, which is good. It's interesting that Behr also lists a film thickness of 2.6, which is very thick, at a spread rate of 250 sf/gal. This is kind of interesting because I think the paint is thick enough to achieve that in practice, if you want, resulting in extremely good hiding and coverage (at a higher material cost, but no extra labor cost.) In other words you can achieve double the coating thickness of a lesser but decent paint (say BM Ben, or SW ProMar 200) in half the time. Or spread Behr PPU at 350 sf, get a coat and a half of those paints, and thus achieve single coat coverage in some cases. (It's not quite that simple, but still...)

Overall I was impressed with the paint. I can tell that Behr, in line with the big pro companies, has improved their product line over the last however-many-years. I would not hesitate to recommend it to homeowners, at about $32-36 depending on sheen.

Anyone including Behr PPU as part of "big box paint" and calling all of it junk either hasn't used it or is spouting nonsense for some other reason. For a homeowner to know if he can trust a Home Depot associate to give him good advice is another matter.

In your modest opinion
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Old 05-24-2013, 05:50 PM   #9
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A Home Depot/Behr paint experience


My new mantra for the past few months has been: "If it works (worked) for you, then by all means, keep using it." Not gonna argue paint quality anymore. Heck, if colored water works on your house and lasts for 10 years, KEEP USING IT. I have no problem with someone using a different brand than I am comfortable with. Behr never worked for me so I won't be going back to it.
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Old 05-24-2013, 06:48 PM   #10
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A Home Depot/Behr paint experience


I am with Gymshu. I only used it when it was donated it performed so badly for me I would never risk it for real jobs. My clients would not have let it in the door. I don't like plumbing fittings that crack and cheap fasteners that break either. They cost me money. And do not get me started on how long it takes to sort through the pre-sorted lumber at a box store.

Listen for the giant sucking sound in a box store. That is just about every dime of profit being sucked away to corporate headquarters with none invested in local communities.

It is no secret I find box store corporate policy contrary to the needs of communities they operate within. They get discounted rates on property taxes. They keep most of their employees under full time so at best they only have to provide limited health insurance for the employee and not the family. Even if offered, family coverage is beyond a part-time box store income. The taxpayer picks up the slack so you have to factor that into what you think you are saving.

Perhaps it is a little thing I harp to much about but the family owned hardware or paint store used to support local little league teams, girls drill and dance clubs, and other direct community activities. Box stores do not.

Menard's wanted a second store where I lived before moving to Chicago. They were furious when the deal came with a mandate to build distributed affordable housing for the community being displaced. Five WalMart presences, two Lowe's, two Menard's, one Home Depot for a population of 200,000 (half that this time of year when students are away). My paint dealer, inside a family owned Do-It-Best franchise was hanging on because it had the paint contract for the University. The Tru Valu places were really struggling. Taxpayers were picking up the extra health care costs (rose about 40 percent in direct correlation to family members without coverage) and costs to put gas in fire trucks and police cars came from property tax increases to individuals.

When WalMart's tax property tax incentives on their first store were running out they asked the City to extend them or else! The City did not. WalMart shuttered the store and refused any other retailer to take it over. They moved a mile or so down the road, outside the city limits, and fire and police had to be extended to them.

And what will we be left with when they are the only games in town? Do you really believe they will slash prices and raise quality? It will be take it or leave it.

Bad example but the film processing war between WalMart and Walgreen's put most independent film and print labs out of business. The giants offered film processing under cost and the labs could not compete. Of course the biggies did not process anything but small film formats but without that flow the labs could not make it. Photographers where I lived now have to overnight film to Indianapolis of most likely here for processing. Of course digital is getting better but still cannot rival a piece of sheet film for some things.

Some know I tried to help a couple of little Iowa towns figure out what to do with their downtowns some years ago. One was all but dead. The other had a couple Mom & Pops hanging on but not for much longer. We would have the idea sessions about how to bring retail back and then discussion would turn to weekend plans. People were looking forward to getting dressed up, going shopping and WalMart and having a safe dinner in a non-ethnic chain restaurant. I realized I could not help them.

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Old 05-24-2013, 06:55 PM   #11
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A Home Depot/Behr paint experience


Quote:
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Anyone including Behr PPU as part of "big box paint" and calling all of it junk either hasn't used it or is spouting nonsense for some other reason.

In your modest opinion
No, not really. I chose the word "junk" so there couldn't be any doubt about it. It's not like I'm saying PPU is better than SuperPaint, or making some kind of close call. PPU is not junk, or trash, or anything close, period. After my experience, I now know for sure (rather than just guessing) that the next person who comes here claiming all big box paint, including PPU, is junk, is either ignorant or has some agenda.

You can debate which you like more - Aura or Regal or SuperPaint or whatever - that would be opinion.
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Old 05-24-2013, 07:04 PM   #12
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A Home Depot/Behr paint experience


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I only used it when it was donated it performed so badly for me I would never risk it for real jobs.
1. When was this?
2. Was it Premium Plus?

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Originally Posted by sdsester View Post
And it is no secret I find box store corporate policy contrary to the needs of communities they operate within. They get discounted rates on property taxes. They keep most of their employees under full time so at best they only have to provide limited health insurance for the employee and not the family. Even if offered, family coverage is beyond a part-time box store income. The taxpayer picks up the slack so you have to factor that into what you think you are saving.
Well I don't really know anything about that. I was commenting on the quality of PPU primarily, and the technical quality of paint staff secondarily.

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Perhaps it is a little thing I harp to much about but the family owned hardware or paint store used to support local little league teams, girls drill and dance clubs, and other direct community activities. Box stores do not.
But since you brought it up, I don't think Sherwin Williams or Benjamin Moore really qualify as Mom and Pop stores. The closest thing I know of that does is Ace Hardware, and last time I tried one of their paints (many years ago) it was pretty good. I believe they have some tie in with BM.

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When WalMart's tax property tax incentives on their first store were running out they asked the City to extend them or else! The City did not. WalMart shuttered the store and refused any other retailer to take it over. They moved a mile or so down the road, outside the city limits, and fire and police had to be extended to them.
Don't get me started on WalMart. I programmed their self-checkout registers at one time and I have negative personal experience with their staff. What I would call unethical. But we digress.
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Old 05-24-2013, 07:41 PM   #13
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A Home Depot/Behr paint experience


Bringing up paint brands never seems to be a great idea, sure does bring in a entertaining long thread and there are many of them.

I have only once in 7 years had a bad experience with a behr paint.
Was as simple as bringing the paint back, they looked at it and wrinkled up their nose, apologized and replaced it with another gallon.
I send customers hd choose a behr color, they can pick it up or give me the color and I will pick it up. I do like the paint and primer in one, and can almost get it done with one coat.
If I am painting, most likely is some fresh bare drywall close by, and do need a second coat for it.
But if it is just behr or behr with the primer included, is good paint in my book.
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Old 05-24-2013, 11:39 PM   #14
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A Home Depot/Behr paint experience


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Originally Posted by Jmayspaint View Post
I really think a lot of paints get bad reviews by HO'a and pro alike because very few people actually apply a full coat of paint (generally 4mil wet)

It doesn't seem fair to judge any paint if its not applied like its designed to be.
Exactly. people are spreading it too thin, and saying it needs 10 coats to cover.



jeffnc, do you get a contractor's discount on paint at Home depot?
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Old 05-25-2013, 01:59 AM   #15
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A Home Depot/Behr paint experience


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No, not really. I chose the word "junk" so there couldn't be any doubt about it. It's not like I'm saying PPU is better than SuperPaint, or making some kind of close call. PPU is not junk, or trash, or anything close, period. After my experience, I now know for sure (rather than just guessing) that the next person who comes here claiming all big box paint, including PPU, is junk, is either ignorant or has some agenda.

You can debate which you like more - Aura or Regal or SuperPaint or whatever - that would be opinion.
That's just it. "After your experience" AKA you used it once.

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