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-   -   Help! Latex Paint peeling off the walls! (http://www.diychatroom.com/f4/help-latex-paint-peeling-off-walls-148943/)

Morris C. 07-02-2012 03:27 PM

Help! Latex Paint peeling off the walls!
 
You can pretty much see the problem in the photo below. I used Betonel VIP 100% acrylic latex paint on my bathroom wall. Two days later, it peels right off if I pull it with my fingers (but it would be very difficult and tedious to remove it from the entire walls this way). The surface underneath is completely unaffected, and not peeling off. The bathroom was recently renovated. But I don't know what thin, milky garbage the contractors used to prime the walls. Only that they "spot primed" and didn't clean anything, cos that was quicker. I don't know what type of paint was originally used underneath the primer; possibly it was oil.

Basically... what do I do now?! What's the cheapest way to fix this? I don't know how to remove 4 walls of weak paint. I am thinking of using Zinnser Bullseye 1-2-3 primer this time, then have another go with the same Betonel paint. Is it necessary to completely remove the old paint if I use this primer?


http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7265/7...a4a48465_z.jpg

chrisn 07-02-2012 04:38 PM

I would guess the pink is oil and you( or someone) put the blue latex on top with no prep work. All of the blue must be removed and the pink primed with a bonding primer. Cover stain is a good one or you can use the 123 after a light sanding of the pink.


Betonel VIP 100% acrylic latex paint

never heard of that:no:

Morris C. 07-02-2012 05:05 PM

That's probably a good guess (though it's not pink, it's various shades of white underneath the turquoise latex). The old paint was likely oil, and your typical lazy contractors did no prep work on the walls, before "spot priming" (throwing a bit of thin primer here and there in spots). It is very unlikely they used an oil-based primer. Thing is, I do not know how to remove the blue (turquoise) latex paint. I tried metal and plastic scrapers, blow dryer, and the only way it comes off is if I roll it under my fingers, bit by bit, then stretch and peel off the rubbery paint layer in small sections. But that is very tiring, and I have 4 walls to do!

The tecnician at Zinsser said priming over a peelable layer of latex is not giong to work no matter which of their products I try, and that I should let the blue latex paint cure for 5 more days, and see whether it bonds. Does this sound like another gigantic waste of my time or a reasonable idea? Frankly, I'm not sure what else to do, as I do not have many tools at my disposal (ie. no power sander). BTW, Betonel is very likely a Quebec only brand.




Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisn (Post 956301)
I would guess the pink is oil and you( or someone) put the blue latex on top with no prep work. All of the blue must be removed and the pink primed with a bonding primer. Cover stain is a good one or you can use the 123 after a light sanding of the pink.


Betonel VIP 100% acrylic latex paint

never heard of that:no:


Cpcphil 07-02-2012 05:43 PM

You definitely need to remove all the existing coating (blue) from the wall. There are several ways to do this scrape, sand or chemically strip. There are a number of good quality citrus water based strippers on the market. The key is patience because they take time to work, actually softening the paint you want to strip so you can scrape it from the surface. Most likely the paint on the wall underneath the blue is oil based but there is a test you can do to determine for sure. Take some denatured alcohol saturate a white, clean rag and wipe the surface. If it softens the coating then it's latex if it doesn't then it's oil.

After you have removed all the blue paint, wipe down the surface to be painted with denatured alcohol and let dry for at least 30 minutes. Lightly sand the surface if it is glossy, wipe off sanding dust with a clean, damp rag and let dry. Then apply an adhesion promoting primer. Let primer dry according to label directions then apply your paint, again following label directions.

All surfaces you paint need to be clean, dull and dry. It does not matter what surface you paint it has to be clean, dull and dry.

Also keep in mind that excessive humidity can cause paint not to cure properly and therefore will have very poor adhesion to the surface. If the room is humid try turning on the exhaust fan or simply placing a box fan on low in the room will help "dry" the air.

Last thing... Look at the back of the blue paint that you can peel off the wall. If it is a milky white color then the previous coating is failing. If is feels gritty or sandy then the walls were not cleaned prior to painting the blue paint. Remember a new coat of paint is only as good as whats underneath it so if the coating you are painting over is peeling gues what? The new coat of paint will do the same. There is no miracle paint that can "lock down" a crappy paint job...

I hope this helps...

Phil "the paint guy"

Morris C. 07-02-2012 06:15 PM

Thanks, Phil. Removing the paint is proving to be easier said than done. I've tried sanding, that just rubs the paint right into the wall, making it harder to come off. I've tried scraping with metal and plastic scrapers and razors; it will not come off like that, as it does not flake off. I will look into citrus paint removers, but I don't have much hope of something like that working. The paint does, as I've said, roll off under the fingers and can be pulled off in bits. But it would take a year and a half for me to remove it like that.

Is there no merit to what the Zinsser agent told me - that this is a "problem" I created myself, by not waiting long enough for the paint to cure? And that it could resolve itself by waiting 5 more days? (it could stop peeling once it fully cures) She said their own primer products can be expected to do the same thing, if you don't wait a week for it to fully cure.

You can see the back of the paint in the photo below. Although the wall underneath the blue paint feels dry, with no white paint flaking or pulling off, there is obviously white primer on the back of the paint piece. It feels dry and sandy. Although the wall was supposedly primed by the contractors, it was certainly not cleaned with TSP or water to remove the plaster dust (then again, there is only the section in the photo were the gyproc was replaced).



http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8028/7...30d7fd01_z.jpg

jimmy21 07-02-2012 06:29 PM

use a hair dyer and peel. Don't sand.

Morris C. 07-02-2012 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy21 (Post 956408)
use a hair dyer and peel. Don't sand.

Maybe you've had better luck with this, but I found that using a hot hair dryer was not really any faster than just using my fingers and peeling, except I could only use one hand to peel. There's got to be an easier way! :eek:

jimmy21 07-02-2012 07:44 PM

angle grinder with a wire wheel. lol

have you tried a sheetrock mudding knife to scrape?

Morris C. 07-02-2012 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmy21 (Post 956468)
angle grinder with a wire wheel. lol

That's why I said no power tools! I am not that well equipped... i did try a metal putty knife along with a few plastic ones, and a razor knife. I found I was more likely to damage the drywall than have any chance of scraping up the paint. However, I have not tried an actual paint scraper tool (as pictured below), so I don't know if that will make all the difference. So far, only rolling the edges of the paint layer with my fingers has succeeded at taking it off - bit by tiny bit....

If I can not manage a reasonable way to get this paint off the wall, and I don't have much hope that I will, then I will wait the 5 days advised by Zinsser, to see if the latex paint will finally cure and adhere without being easily scraped off with a finger. If that's the case, I will spackle the area I did manage to scrape off with my hands, then repaint it with the same latex, then let that spot cure for one week, then prime all 4 walls with Zinsser CoverStain (oil based primer), let that cure for one week, then paint it with another coat of the blue latex, and let that cure for one week before even thinking of turning on the bath or shower!

http://visual.merriam-webster.com/im...ep/scraper.jpg

Brushjockey 07-02-2012 09:33 PM

If you can't peel it off, then at least at that spot it's not peeling. Look for bubbles or any other sign of weakness and go for those areas.
If it were me- Id get everything I could resaonably get ( and i probably have a few more tricks than you..) , then prime the whole mess with Gardz which would give a vapor barrier / sort of fresh start ( Cover stain would do the same, I prefer Gardz)
Skim with taping compound to smooth, sand reprime ( gardz again- double up on that bad boy) then finish with a really good paint. You know something like Aura Eggshell for all my troubles.

Morris C. 07-02-2012 10:01 PM

The problem is I can peel the paint off... anywhere, at any spot, on any wall at any time. I just can't peel it off with a scraper, but it all comes off if pulled by my fingers. There is no bubbling problems anywhere. The entire surface of the 4 walls is the "weak area", as none of the paint appears to have adhered well to the walls. It seems that either oil paint was originally used and then a bit of weak latex primer over top of that here and there, or the walls were not cleaned prior to painting, and dust from small drywall repair was not removed. Or I simply did not wait a full week for the latex paint to cure. It is a small bathroom after all, and we're in mid-summer. Though I have not turned the water on, the humidity in the room can't be that low, and that can't help with the curing process.

Gardz may be great, but it's water based primer. The agent from Bentonel (the manufacturer of my paint) advised me to use an oil based primer - which is why I mentioned CoverStain. Reason being it is very likely the original paint underneath the latex and primer was oil paint. Also, I spoke with the agent from Zinsser today, and we discussed Gardz, Bullseye 123 and PeelStop primers. She recommended I go with Bullseye (though I can't say why....).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brushjockey (Post 956585)
If you can't peel it off, then at least at that spot it's not peeling. Look for bubbles or any other sign of weakness and go for those areas.
If it were me- Id get everything I could resaonably get ( and i probably have a few more tricks than you..) , then prime the whole mess with Gardz which would give a vapor barrier / sort of fresh start ( Cover stain would do the same, I prefer Gardz)
Skim with taping compound to smooth, sand reprime ( gardz again- double up on that bad boy) then finish with a really good paint. You know something like Aura Eggshell for all my troubles.


jimmy21 07-02-2012 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brushjockey (Post 956585)
If you can't peel it off, then at least at that spot it's not peeling. Look for bubbles or any other sign of weakness and go for those areas.
If it were me- Id get everything I could resaonably get ( and i probably have a few more tricks than you..) , then prime the whole mess with Gardz which would give a vapor barrier / sort of fresh start ( Cover stain would do the same, I prefer Gardz)
Skim with taping compound to smooth, sand reprime ( gardz again- double up on that bad boy) then finish with a really good paint. You know something like Aura Eggshell for all my troubles.

just because its not peeling up now, doesn't mean it won't be in a couple months. There is obviously an adhesion problem and it all needs to come off

Cpcphil 07-02-2012 10:22 PM

I have a few more questions for you. Was all the Sheetrock replace And is the paint peeling only on the new Sheetrock? Did the contractors texture the sheetrock prior to your painting this surface. How long did you wait before painting over the top of the contractors spot priming? Temperature and humidy during your Application of paint? When did you finish painting?

It looks like the contractors textured the wall and that is what is on the backside of the paint you peel off the wall. Texture is typically dry overnight and safe for primer the next day. If you painted over this texture without a primer and you put on heavy coats to get this dark color to hide and cover and knowing this paint is 100% acrylic in a deep or neutral base you definitely could have issues with adhesion. If this is the case scrape off what you can and let this paint cure. Curing takes about 3 weeks but then it should shrink down and stick to the Sheetrock. Then you can sand and feather the edges where the paint peeled down to the Sheetrock, prime the bare areas Then paint over the primer.

Feel free to email me at cpcphil@yahoo.com or call 4065995251

Thank you....

Brushjockey 07-02-2012 10:27 PM

If it is peeling then you must find the way to get it off. Use a variety of tools and see what works. Sometimes the amount of flex, or the sharpness of a particular scraper might make all the difference. Hot water sprayed on to make rubbery- same idea as the heat gun, etc. Find its week spot and exploit.
I just saw the scraper that you showed. that is the wrong type for this- you want a straight flex 3 or 4 " scraper. that's what Id try anyway.
http://www.make-my-own-house.com/images/4trowel.jpg


Some "Experts" are more expert than others. I wont argue the coverstain, I know it will work. I also know alot about Gardz because i have used it in many situations. But i don't need to prove that here.
I do say that the 123 is not the choice for here.
If your paint is very rubbery- it is not the right paint. When you get to recoat time, consider a better product.

Morris C. 07-02-2012 11:07 PM

No, just a relatively small section of drywall near the tub was replaced, around the area in the first photo where I removed the blue latex paint. However, the paint peels everywhere, if I scrape it with my fingernails. This is why I am more inclined to believe the original paint was quite possibly oil paint. I'm not sure what "texture" refers to, but from what I saw, they just added very thin milky primer to various spots around the bathroom. Maybe they might have spread some plaster here or there, and not primed over it. But I did not see them with any product other than plaster or primer.

They did no prep or anything to the walls, other than spot priming (and possibly spot plastering) . Heck, they resented even priming the walls after their reno work was done! Before painting over top of the spot-primed walls, i waited about 5 days or so. It,s been 2-3 days since I painted with blue latex. The last few days have not been terribly hot, so temp and humidity was about average for this time of year, which is of course somewhat higher than winter. I have not turned any water on in the bathroom since well before the renovation work. Still, I am planning to leave a box fan running day-night and the room's ceiling exhaust fan, to help speed up any curing-bonding that might take place.

Quote:

Then you can sand and feather the edges where the paint peeled down to the Sheetrock, prime the bare areas Then paint over the primer.
Well, I was planning to prime the entire room. But when ready for priming, there will be a layer of difference between the paint I removed, and the paint still adhering to the wall. Do I need to spackle or plaster the bare areas then? If not, won't there be a difference showing if I put primer over both bare areas and painted areas?

Wait, did you say curing takes about 3 weeks??:eek: But... but... the lady from Zinsser said I should wait 5 days! And that's already a long time to go without a bathroom! If I have to wait 3 weeks for the latex to cure, then 3 weeks for the primer to cure, then 3 weeks for the latex recoat, I'll be finished this project..... approximately never. I can't hold it in that long! :(


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