Good deed turns ugly.....

waggedout · 10-08-2008, 10:53 PM

Six years ago my husband was undergoing medical treatment which prompted us to rent a summer place in St.Louis in order to be closer to the hospital. A good friend of ours decided to pay a known "handyman," to paint our kitchen as a sweet surprise to us when we returned. We were very grateful for this. It was on our to-do list that was being put on hold. When we got home to see the kitchen we noticed right away that although the color was correct, the paint was bubbled in various places. As the first couple weeks went by we noticed that the slightest touch left scrape marks on new paint. Apparently, the paint used was an oil-based painted on top of a latex. Needless to say six years later we are still living w/the scratched off paint, just a lot more marks now.

I would love to find an econimical fix. Some suggestions have been resurfacing

or installing glass inserts. Is there any other choice out there? Perhaps a rub to create more distress? I have a old style country kitchen with many big and small cabinets. Therefore, whatever the job, it's going to be a big one. Thanks

ccarlisle · 10-09-2008, 08:02 AM

Well, what a sad tale; I am sure the people who thought of this idea were well-intentioned as was the painter, but they ought to have been on the look-out for what is a common problem professionally.

The new paint pulled off the old paint as it dried. Now the painter would not have known this would happen because he probably didn't apply the original paint, nor did he have a say in the prep work needed to ensure the old paint job was a good job. So, if the original painter messed up the the new painter would too.

We had that situation just last week. What my painter did was scrape the old and new flaked paint off with a scraper, prime, sand, prime and recoat with the new paint. Qulaity products all through, no cheap paint!

No other choice, I don't think. Job would have taken 50% more time, time to wait till the primer dried, but that has to be built into professional quotes because we all meet the same dilemma.

Since you were going to repaint anyway on your own time and budget, thank the people who did it, show them the problem and how you're going to fix it, so that they don't do that again...

Matthewt1970 · 10-09-2008, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by waggedout

Apparently, the paint used was an oil-based painted on top of a latex.

Yep, once you painted something with latex, that's all it should be painted from now on. To "Get away" with putting oil over latex, he should have put a full coat of oil based primer, and even then you are still crossing your fingers.

ccarlisle · 10-09-2008, 11:37 AM

When you think about it, latex paints are water-based and water-based paints 'dry' by evaporation and by absorbtion into the substrate. Alkyds, or oil-based paints, contain solvents and as a general rule solvents evaporate quicker than water. They also dissolve resins and other things quite well too.

So an alkyd paint will immediately dissolve the latex layer underneath it and start to evaporate. So unless the latex has been 'nailed down real good' i.e. well prepped beforehand, there is a good chance the layers will peel off.

Trouble is, that in our case, both layers, old and new, were latexes...in our case it was badly prepped and we think they just painted over joint compound without a primer

Nestor_Kelebay · 10-11-2008, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccarlisle

When you think about it, latex paints are water-based and water-based paints 'dry' by evaporation and by absorbtion into the substrate. Alkyds, or oil-based paints, contain solvents and as a general rule solvents evaporate quicker than water. They also dissolve resins and other things quite well too.

"Drying" of either latex or oil based paint is a two step process. The first step is evaporation of the thinner (water or paint thinner). After that, the second step begins, which is coalescence of the resins to form a film in latex paints, and absorbtion of oxygen into the paint and the subsequent crosslinking of the oil molecules or alkyd resins with oxygen in oil based paints.

If latex and oil based paints "dried" just the same way as muck dries to form mud, then it wouldn't be possible to wash latex painted walls with water without washing the paint off too.

Quote:

So an alkyd paint will immediately dissolve the latex layer underneath it and start to evaporate.

A latex paint will partially dissolve the latex paint layer immediately underneath it because of the coalescing solvents in the new paint. Applying oil paint over dry latex paint won't harm the latex paint at all. The solvent in oil based paint is mineral spirits (or turpentine in the case of true drying oil paints), and neither mineral spirits nor turpentine will dissolve latex paint. Mineral spirits won't harm fully "dry" oil based paints either.

Matthewt1970 · 10-11-2008, 12:57 AM

I was gonna call him on that too, but decided not to.

ccarlisle · 10-11-2008, 08:03 AM

OK, my post was simplistic and geared towards the less technically minded on this forum. Not completely accurate, true - but then no 6-line post can adequatley treat the subject of paint drying. I didn't even mention coalescing of the resin - as I focused on drying of paint via absorption and evaporation. Sure, that's all true.

I certainly didn't try to write a thesis on it.

But go ahead, "call me out", Mathew1970.

Matthewt1970 · 10-11-2008, 10:52 AM

Fair enough..

downunder · 10-17-2008, 06:37 PM

Quote:

I would love to find an econimical fix.

Quote:

but then no 6-line post can adequatley treat the subject of paint drying

Such verbosity! Any answers for OP's question?

ccarlisle · 10-18-2008, 07:42 AM

What's the matter, downunder, had a hrd night? have a hard time reading?

As a matter of fact, old fart, the question was answered as most people who can read and comprehend will attest. Furthermore, the OP already knew the job was a big one by saying:

"Therefore, whatever the job, it's going to be a big one.'

Scrape, reprime repaint...how's that, fart, for simplicity? The fact is that there are some of us here for whom service to this forum does not consist of taking potshots at people under cover of the internet; some of us have painted and studied paint for a while now so, if you know a way of summarizing some 50 years of paint technology in a phrase, go ahead by my guest.

In then end, who posts helps out?

Keep the blinkers on.

10-08-2008, 10:53 PM	#1
waggedout Newbie Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 1	Good deed turns ugly..... Six years ago my husband was undergoing medical treatment which prompted us to rent a summer place in St.Louis in order to be closer to the hospital. A good friend of ours decided to pay a known "handyman," to paint our kitchen as a sweet surprise to us when we returned. We were very grateful for this. It was on our to-do list that was being put on hold. When we got home to see the kitchen we noticed right away that although the color was correct, the paint was bubbled in various places. As the first couple weeks went by we noticed that the slightest touch left scrape marks on new paint. Apparently, the paint used was an oil-based painted on top of a latex. Needless to say six years later we are still living w/the scratched off paint, just a lot more marks now. I would love to find an econimical fix. Some suggestions have been resurfacing or installing glass inserts. Is there any other choice out there? Perhaps a rub to create more distress? I have a old style country kitchen with many big and small cabinets. Therefore, whatever the job, it's going to be a big one. Thanks

10-09-2008, 08:02 AM	#2
ccarlisle Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,791	Good deed turns ugly..... Well, what a sad tale; I am sure the people who thought of this idea were well-intentioned as was the painter, but they ought to have been on the look-out for what is a common problem professionally. The new paint pulled off the old paint as it dried. Now the painter would not have known this would happen because he probably didn't apply the original paint, nor did he have a say in the prep work needed to ensure the old paint job was a good job. So, if the original painter messed up the the new painter would too. We had that situation just last week. What my painter did was scrape the old and new flaked paint off with a scraper, prime, sand, prime and recoat with the new paint. Qulaity products all through, no cheap paint! No other choice, I don't think. Job would have taken 50% more time, time to wait till the primer dried, but that has to be built into professional quotes because we all meet the same dilemma. Since you were going to repaint anyway on your own time and budget, thank the people who did it, show them the problem and how you're going to fix it, so that they don't do that again...

10-09-2008, 11:37 AM	#4
ccarlisle Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,791	Good deed turns ugly..... When you think about it, latex paints are water-based and water-based paints 'dry' by evaporation and by absorbtion into the substrate. Alkyds, or oil-based paints, contain solvents and as a general rule solvents evaporate quicker than water. They also dissolve resins and other things quite well too. So an alkyd paint will immediately dissolve the latex layer underneath it and start to evaporate. So unless the latex has been 'nailed down real good' i.e. well prepped beforehand, there is a good chance the layers will peel off. Trouble is, that in our case, both layers, old and new, were latexes...in our case it was badly prepped and we think they just painted over joint compound without a primer

10-11-2008, 12:57 AM	#6
Matthewt1970 Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,526	Good deed turns ugly..... I was gonna call him on that too, but decided not to.

10-11-2008, 08:03 AM	#7
ccarlisle Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 1,791	Good deed turns ugly..... OK, my post was simplistic and geared towards the less technically minded on this forum. Not completely accurate, true - but then no 6-line post can adequatley treat the subject of paint drying. I didn't even mention coalescing of the resin - as I focused on drying of paint via absorption and evaporation. Sure, that's all true. I certainly didn't try to write a thesis on it. But go ahead, "call me out", Mathew1970.

Good deed turns ugly.....