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Old 05-29-2012, 11:07 AM   #1
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Exterior Priming Question


I bow to the paint gods…

I have a question about exterior priming.

This the summer that I’m going to paint the exterior of my house after years of (my) neglect.

Background: House built in 1985, 1 prior owner, painted 1 time during their 5 year ownership. My 20 year ownership, painted once in 1996 with Sears Weatherbeater latex. So for 20 years, I neglected to paint. Oops.

Location: North Central Illinois

Here’s what I’ve done:
Scrap and wire-brush all walls and trim to remove all peeling paint;
Power-wash with TSP;
Wait 3 days for it to dry-out and wire-brush again.

I’ve got bare wood in some areas; but I notice as the days pass I still find some small areas with loose paint.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/220/img3765b.jpg/

Do I reseal with a latex-based primer, prior to painting? Or as I saw in another thread, seal with the Zinsser Peel Stop? Can I use the Zinsser as a primer, then paint? Or seal with Zinsser, then prime, then paint?

Thanks.
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Last edited by lippy_the_Lion; 05-30-2012 at 08:15 AM. Reason: added scraping; hi-res photo link added; location added
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:16 AM   #2
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Exterior Priming Question


I would use a paint scraper rather than a wire brush, and if this were my house, I would follow up with a random orbital sander, and possibly skip the pressure washing, unless the siding is exceptionally dirty. I would prime with a quality water based primer and then two top coats.

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Old 05-29-2012, 11:22 AM   #3
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I would use a paint scraper rather than a wire brush, and if this were my house, I would follow up with a random orbital sander, and possibly skip the pressure washing, unless the siding is exceptionally dirty. I would prime with a quality water based primer and then two top coats.
My bad; I scraped in front of my wife, who followed with wire-brushing.
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Old 05-29-2012, 11:49 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Windows View Post
...with a random orbital sander...
The wood finish is not smooth; it's rough-cut (link to Home Cheepo):
http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Ma...&storeId=10051
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Old 05-29-2012, 05:39 PM   #5
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Exterior Priming Question


Not to argue with windows because latex primer is OK but for the best solution, a slow drying oil primer folowed by 2 100% acrylic topcoats is the industry standard. ( IMO)
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Old 05-29-2012, 05:54 PM   #6
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Lippy, you do not indicate where you are located. One word about oil primers, if I may. Oils can be a good choice for penetration, where needed. However, they continue to harden perpetually, leading to cracking and system failure. 100% Acrylic primers are an excellent choice and are the industry syandard in the sun-belt states. They expand and contract with the wood and finish coats, promoting a longer life. I highly recommend a 100% Acrylic system all the way.
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Old 05-30-2012, 04:23 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Mr. Paint View Post
Lippy, you do not indicate where you are located. One word about oil primers, if I may. Oils can be a good choice for penetration, where needed. However, they continue to harden perpetually, leading to cracking and system failure. 100% Acrylic primers are an excellent choice and are the industry syandard in the sun-belt states. They expand and contract with the wood and finish coats, promoting a longer life. I highly recommend a 100% Acrylic system all the way.

That may be true in California, but not elsewhere
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Old 05-30-2012, 08:14 AM   #8
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Lippy, you do not indicate where you are located.
Thanks for the replies.

Sorry...North Central Illinois
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Old 05-30-2012, 09:16 AM   #9
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Exterior Priming Question


Hey Lippy,
Primer is most effective when it dries slowly and allows penetration into the substrate. This is one of the reasons you are supposed to work around the sun with any product, to allow slow drying. Acrylic primers were formulated for the DIYer. The manufactures would have you believe they are as effective as oil base primers. Yes oil base primer is messy and more work than acrylic, however if you want to do it right use the oil. You might also consider hiring a qualified contractor to do the priming process for you.

P.S. I don’t want to start a new thread of arguments, and everyone has their own opinions but, I’ve always believed the quality of a product can be easily judged by how hard it is to get off your skin. If it sticks to your skin, it will surly stick to the wood. If you can hold your arm under the faucet and wipe it off with one swipe, then that should tell you it’s bonding or wash ability attributes. I can only remember one acrylic primer that was worth the cost of the can it was put in and that was made by Dupont. It bonded so well, I had to use a pumice stone to rub it off my skin. Soap wouldn’t touch it. Unfortunately it was only on the market for a couple of years and they discontinued making it.
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Old 05-30-2012, 08:15 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Mr. Paint View Post
Lippy, you do not indicate where you are located. One word about oil primers, if I may. Oils can be a good choice for penetration, where needed. However, they continue to harden perpetually, leading to cracking and system failure. 100% Acrylic primers are an excellent choice and are the industry syandard in the sun-belt states. They expand and contract with the wood and finish coats, promoting a longer life. I highly recommend a 100% Acrylic system all the way.
No, primer is a different product all together and does not suffer any of the same fates as oil paints. Even so, oil based paint failures happen long long long after latex would have failed. The drying, cracking and chipping you will find with oils is after decades decades. Oil expands and contracts fine with wood and has done so for over 100 years. If you want to see a good example, look at your car. That will expand and contract a lot more than your house will and the paint never chips off that. It will also typicly bend when dented as well.

Oil primer is still the way to go on bare wood.
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Old 05-30-2012, 11:10 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by chrisn View Post
Not to argue with windows because latex primer is OK but for the best solution, a slow drying oil primer folowed by 2 100% acrylic topcoats is the industry standard. ( IMO)
Benjamin Moore Fresh Start alkyd primer would be my choice.

Your other option is to consider using a solid acrylic stain product. It will go over both the painted and unpainted surfaces. I am sure Benjamin Moore has a good product but I know Sherwin Williams and MAB solid stain products the best. MAB was acquired by SW so formulas may now be the same.



A lot of the restorers of antique homes where I worked mainly on the interiors used solid stains rather than primer and paint on the exteriors. Nice results.

Last edited by user1007; 05-30-2012 at 11:14 PM. Reason: Added Picture
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Old 05-31-2012, 10:43 AM   #12
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Exterior Priming Question


For the pictured wood (which appears to be a form of plywood siding, and acrylic primer would be best. A solid stain would also be an option, but you would have to remove all loose paint.
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Old 05-31-2012, 11:19 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lippy_the_Lion View Post
I bow to the paint gods…

I have a question about exterior priming.

This the summer that I’m going to paint the exterior of my house after years of (my) neglect.

Background: House built in 1985, 1 prior owner, painted 1 time during their 5 year ownership. My 20 year ownership, painted once in 1996 with Sears Weatherbeater latex. So for 20 years, I neglected to paint. Oops.

Location: North Central Illinois

Here’s what I’ve done:
Scrap and wire-brush all walls and trim to remove all peeling paint;
Power-wash with TSP;
Wait 3 days for it to dry-out and wire-brush again.

I’ve got bare wood in some areas; but I notice as the days pass I still find some small areas with loose paint.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/220/img3765b.jpg/

Do I reseal with a latex-based primer, prior to painting? Or as I saw in another thread, seal with the Zinsser Peel Stop? Can I use the Zinsser as a primer, then paint? Or seal with Zinsser, then prime, then paint?

Thanks.
Hiya Lippy..

Thank you for your inquiry. This is a fascinating discussion, and you've already got several responses based on truth, partial truths, fabrications, off-based opinions, and a lack of information or understanding of today's paint and coating technologies (how's that for avoiding arguments?)...

To begin, to ANY painter/contractor that has had success with applications contrary to what I'm about to describe, simply continue to do that which you believe is best for you and your client(s). I'm not trying to change your means of application or your mind, nor am I trying to sell you anything. But, by the same token, don't so casually disregard a paint manufacturer's best recommendation simply because it's different than what you are used to or understand. New products and technologies are the design of highly educated chemists and chemical engineers, and are created to perform in a specific manner, in a specific environment, against a broad variable of intended substrates and their inherent inconsistencies. But before these new products and technologies are introduced to the end-users, the are extensively tested, in extreme environments, for performance and longevity.

Lippy, following necessary and proper surface prep, the best recommendation for your specific situation is to prime with a water-borne Acrylic Exterior Primer. The primary reason for acrylic is due to the surface you're trying to prime/paint (T1-11 / abraded plywood). Acrylics are far more flexible than alkyds (especially over time) and are able to expand and contract with the movement of exterior plywood. Plywood expands in all directions, as opposed to board siding that only significantly expands in a pattern perpendicular to the grain. Acrylic films are "micro-porous", or breathable, which allows for moisture, in the form of vapor, to pass harmlessly from inside the home and through paint film - as opposed to becoming entrapped between the substrate and an impermeable alkyd film, causing blistering and peeling (btw, this vapor transmission is the reason wood expands and contracts - pretty much an un-stoppable dynamic). Acrylics have excellent adhesion and are more resistant to mold and mildew growth than oil/alkyds.

...And recommending latex primers for exterior plywood is not due to new-fangled technologies. Most companies recommended latex primer for exterior plywood as early as the late 60's and 70's, to minimize the possibility of paint film "checking"...

The argument that quality, or performance, may be determined by how well it cleans from your hands or tools, is interesting but irrelevant. The only real way that stand would be supported is if skin was the targeted substrate - plus that would also suggest that a poly-amide epoxy would the best primer to use on your wood sided home - when, in fact, it'd be the worst system you could use on your wood sided home.

Alkyds and Acrylics each have their own distinct advantages and disadvantages. There are situations where an alkyd would be the better recommendation, but not here...To suggest that oil/alkyds have a similar flexibility to acrylics simply is not true. Alkyds and acrylics cure by different processes - an alkyd resin really never finishes curing, it continually gets harder and harder, more brittle and less resilient, over time. The amount of time that takes depends on several factors including compositional makeup and environmental exposure.

The Auto Industry? Please, the auto industry hasn't used oil/alkyd paints in at least 3 decades - alkyd/oils were pretty much replaced by - you guessed it - acrylics, due to superior adhesion, flexibility, and color & gloss retention (same distinct advantages as is with acrylic architectural house paints)...

I really don't mean to offend anybody with my comments...and I really don't expect everybody to agree with me (although I'm right). Homeowners and novices come to this forum for advice on how to do something they're not particularly familiar with. I encourage everyone remotely involved in this god-forsaken industry to learn of new trends and technologies that are available and on the market today. Acrylic products are not the same as the earlier generations of latex products - but then, oils/alkyds have changed dramatically also. In an economy where so many consumers have benefited through advanced technologies in virtually every market, is it really that far of a stretch to believe that the Paint & Coatings industry has increased performance and production of their manufactured goods, through advanced technologies, to the benefit of the consumer also?

Good luck to you, Lippy...talk to your local, independent paint dealer for his/her advice on systems and prep procedures also.

Last edited by ric knows paint; 05-31-2012 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 05-31-2012, 11:41 AM   #14
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I just want to highjack this thread for one moment with a couple questions for Ric - you mention there are circumstances where alkyds are more appropriate than acrylics - can you give some examples? What would be your recommendations for pre-primed cedar in the pacific NW? - how about board siding?
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Old 05-31-2012, 12:00 PM   #15
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Windows: My experience with any factory primers are that they are sprayed on too thinly and protect against moisture during shipping. If you haven't used Kelly-Moore's 255 Acry-Shield 100% Acrylic Stain-Resistant Primer, you should. This is designed for redwood and cedar. I recommend our oil-based primers to stop stains that would be extractive through a water-based primer. An acrylic is best on siding.

BTW: Thanks, Ric for your having my back on this. issue. Water based primers may not be given the same engineering process as finish paints for some nefarious manufacturers; they might make it out of waste paint and floor sweepings. Major paint compainies, including my own, build primers for specific purposes - they are well engineered, well tested and use the highest quality virgin materials.

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