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-   -   Exterior Paint Behr: (http://www.diychatroom.com/f4/exterior-paint-behr-101036/)

hunt4cleanair 04-10-2011 11:24 AM

Exterior Paint Behr:
 
I used Behr exterior paint in the fall of 2006 and last year noticed excessive bubbling on two side of my house. The disappointment is that prior to painting, I power washed the entire surface area; allowed to dry...like a week; scrapped, sanded and primed before "spray" painting the exterior latex paint.

I live in coastal South Carolina, so the two sides that get little sun will build up mold over time, so I do powerwash to keep it clean.

So roll forward to Spring 2011 and just completed power washing a couple of weeks ago. This weekend began scrapping and priming with Kiltz. But I'm undecided in regards to paint and looking for options that will fix the longevity issues I experienced with Behr. Looked at SW Duration. In fact, before I began painting with Behr, used SW exterior latex.

Suggestions welcome.

poppameth 04-10-2011 01:05 PM

1) Behr is horrible paint.
2) Kilz is horrible primer.
3) Did you check for moisture content in the substrate?

I don't see any mention of type of material you are painting but moisture content is often the cause of bubbling and peeling. Of course in this case you have two strikes against you by using both Kilz and Behr products. If you need to primer use a better brand such as Zinsser. Go to a real paint store for a good paint. SW, Ben Moore, Pratt & Lambert, PPG, etc. Just about any brand really is going to be better than the paint at the box stores.

Gymschu 04-10-2011 01:42 PM

KILZ is usually just used as an INTERIOR primer. As an overall exterior primer you are just asking for trouble. As PoppaMeth said, BEHR is absolutely the worst paint on planet earth. You're gonna have to strip all that BEHR paint off and start over.

jsheridan 04-10-2011 02:41 PM

Come on guys. OP, which two sides are you getting the blisters on, the mildewed powerwashed sides? Did you notice the blisters prior to p/wash? What kind of results are you getting on the good two sides? Any failure? Does the color and sheen seem to be holding its own? Some blistering after 4 years of coastal South Carolina weather isn't something to get your hair on fire about. I don't care if you buy a 1,000.00 gallon of paint, if some moisture gets behind it, it's going to fail. Besides, yearly maintenance-- scraping, priming, refinishing --on certain troublesome sides/areas is not uncommon on repaints where failure was a problem before, especially.

Gymschu 04-10-2011 02:48 PM

A couple of other issues could also be contributing to the paint failure. Did you backroll when you sprayed? Spraying is tricky and backrolling to me is a must. And, perhaps painting in the late fall in 06 may have created some moisture issues. As paintGOD JSheridan stated, you did get 5 years out of your paint job in brutal conditions, maybe not such a big deal after all.

Faron79 04-10-2011 02:49 PM

OP-

What 2 sides are the problem? E & N?
Are the "good" sides W & S?

What kind of siding material do ya have?
Shakes or boards?
Insulation depth and quality?
How old is the home?
What products have been used previous?
"Like a week" of drying may not have been enough. Moisture-testers are CRUCIAL. They don't lie....

This may not be a PAINT problem at all, as JS is describing!

Faron

hunt4cleanair 04-10-2011 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsheridan (Post 626757)
Come on guys.

Thanks for jumping in here.

Quote:

OP, which two sides are you getting the blisters on, the mildewed powerwashed sides?
The two sides away from the sun get mildewed and blister. All sides were powerwashed.

Quote:

Did you notice the blisters prior to p/wash?
Yes...that's why I powerwashed.

Quote:

What kind of results are you getting on the good two sides? Any failure? Does the color and sheen seem to be holding its own?
The sides that face the sun (southeast and south) are nearly perfect. Color and sheen hold their own and I would say there are no failures on those two sides.

Quote:

Some blistering after 4 years of coastal South Carolina weather isn't something to get your hair on fire about. I don't care if you buy a 1,000.00 gallon of paint, if some moisture gets behind it, it's going to fail. Besides, yearly maintenance-- scraping, priming, refinishing --on certain troublesome sides/areas is not uncommon on repaints where failure was a problem before, especially.
I expected better performance...but you're correct...not bad. Prior to Behr, I was using SW and seemed like I was going 7 years with much better results, so the 4 years is a disappointment in comparison. And, I was not getting the moisture penetration or bubbling on the two sides void of sun until what I considered my major overhaul of the finish. I mean...I thought I had done everything right by the book but it is apparent I had some failure so working to correct.

PS: substrate is 60 year old cedar wood.

Faron79 04-10-2011 03:11 PM

Thanks for clearing-up some of those questions Hunt4!

It's good to know it's good-'ol Cedar. Older boards are better!

Is the bubbling widely scattered, or near penetrations in the siding?
...such as below windows, vents, etc.?

Faron

jsheridan 04-10-2011 03:21 PM

I'm not here to trash or promote anyone's product. Your results seem conclusive, and might be. However, structures, environment, even interior events, change over the years and all can have an impact on exterior finishes. Example: If a bath ceiling fan breaks and never gets fixed, the moisture that fan used to exhaust must find a new way out, and that just may be through your exterior wall, taking the paint with it. You look up and see paint failure, in the area that just happens to be the area where your bath, or laundry, might be, and don't make the connection and assume the paint is bad. The harsher winters of the last few years may have taken a toll as well. All that said, I'm not defending any product, but to have you chase a problem that may not exist is of no help to you. Your results are half and half, and it may be that SW does stand up better to harsher conditions. But, it can also be said, according to your findings, that Behr can stand up to normal conditions, if you can call coastal SC environment normal. And, as I said, no matter what product you use, if you don't solve the moisture issue the problem will continue. If you choose to go back to SW, that's fine, but make sure you cover all your bases before you jump ship on what you have now. I'm here to solve problems, not hang them all on a particular product.
Question: Is the problem wide spread, varied, no ryhme, no reason, or is it localized to a particular area/structure where you can find a commonality? Stand there and look at it and ponder why it could be happening, and think outside the box.

hunt4cleanair 04-10-2011 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gymschu (Post 626763)
A couple of other issues could also be contributing to the paint failure. Did you backroll when you sprayed? Spraying is tricky and backrolling to me is a must. And, perhaps painting in the late fall in 06 may have created some moisture issues. As paintGOD JSheridan stated, you did get 5 years out of your paint job in brutal conditions, maybe not such a big deal after all.

What's "backroll?" Not familiar with paint techie terms. I'll admit, spraying caused me to "thin" the paint to get it thru the gun and I noted back then, it was going on thinner. I concluded afterward, next time to brush it. Rolling won't work with the 12" cedar boards.

jsheridan 04-10-2011 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunt4cleanair (Post 626905)
What's "backroll?" Not familiar with paint techie terms. I'll admit, spraying caused me to "thin" the paint to get it thru the gun and I noted back then, it was going on thinner. I concluded afterward, next time to brush it. Rolling won't work with the 12" cedar boards.

Backroll is using a roller to lay off a sprayed finish, on bare surfaces it helps with penetration and applies texture to the flat spray finish. Back brushing is the same when finish is rolled on. Brush is the most effective applicator to work primer into the pores of bare wood. Simply rolling or spraying a finish on could find it drying on the surface with minimal penetration. As long as a finished painted surface is properly prepped, no back brushing is required unless brush is the preferred look. You'd have to be pretty damn quick with a brush to follow a sprayer.
BTW, why won't a roller work on 12" boards?

Duration 04-10-2011 10:27 PM

Ext paint.
 
The majority of acrylic resins allow moisture to move out but not in. This moisture migration will be more prevalent in the areas that receive the most sunlight due to the sun super heating this side of the home. Consequently, the shady sides do not evaporate the morning dew and rain as quickly. this leads to the mildew accumulation. Duration is a GREAT product. I sell the stuff for a living, but even still I've seen it do some things WB paints shouldn't be able to do. However, it can fail due to moisture. A particular case I've been working on recently involved Duration over several coats of an old Cabot oil stain. The home had a clear moisture problem and the carpenters and roofers couldn't determine where the moisture was coming from. Even the inside of the house was showing signs of moisture migration and mildew growth. When my customer began power washing the cabot stain, 75% fell onto the ground. The other 25% was stuck. So we applied a full 2 coats of Duration. One year later everywhere the cabot stain remains on the sunny sides, the moisture is pushing the cabot stain away from the siding and causing blisters. The moisture is moving right through the Duration paint film where Duration was applied directly to the wood siding.
That being said, you may have an old oil based resin coating buried deep beneath the behr paint. Kilz ( if it's kilz original) is also an oil based primer. The oil will not allow the moisture to migrate out and will eventually peel again. Complete removal may be your only option as is my customer's.

chrisn 04-11-2011 03:27 AM

Now there is a good post( duration), thanks:thumbsup:

hunt4cleanair 04-11-2011 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duration (Post 627066)
That being said, you may have an old oil based resin coating buried deep beneath the behr paint. Kilz ( if it's kilz original) is also an oil based primer. The oil will not allow the moisture to migrate out and will eventually peel again. Complete removal may be your only option as is my customer's.

Thanks Dura

Well, I got curious so went through a bunch of old paint cans one of which was a SW exterior Alkoyd primer I must have used back in the mid 90's when I last used SW 10 year exterior latex. I suspect I talked to the paint guys and at the time was not sure if prior paint had included an oil base paint. I do recall that the finish, back than, was chalky and therefore the recommendation to apply the Alkoyd primer.

But when I "refinished" by scrapping and sanding, I removed both exterior and the primer layers therefore making them to greater susceptibility to the elements and therefore the blistering and peeling.

Does this make sense?

jsheridan 04-11-2011 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duration (Post 627066)
The majority of acrylic resins allow moisture to move out but not in. This moisture migration will be more prevalent in the areas that receive the most sunlight due to the sun super heating this side of the home. Consequently, the shady sides do not evaporate the morning dew and rain as quickly. this leads to the mildew accumulation. Duration is a GREAT product. I sell the stuff for a living, but even still I've seen it do some things WB paints shouldn't be able to do. However, it can fail due to moisture. A particular case I've been working on recently involved Duration over several coats of an old Cabot oil stain. The home had a clear moisture problem and the carpenters and roofers couldn't determine where the moisture was coming from. Even the inside of the house was showing signs of moisture migration and mildew growth. When my customer began power washing the cabot stain, 75% fell onto the ground. The other 25% was stuck. So we applied a full 2 coats of Duration. One year later everywhere the cabot stain remains on the sunny sides, the moisture is pushing the cabot stain away from the siding and causing blisters. The moisture is moving right through the Duration paint film where Duration was applied directly to the wood siding.
That being said, you may have an old oil based resin coating buried deep beneath the behr paint. Kilz ( if it's kilz original) is also an oil based primer. The oil will not allow the moisture to migrate out and will eventually peel again. Complete removal may be your only option as is my customer's.

OP says the sides that face the sun are nearly perfect. Wouldn't those sides fail first? The sun would vaporize any moisture in the siding and form blisters. I'm still waiting for OP to tell us if there is any pattern to the failure, or if it's random. Which side of the house OP takes the brunt of wind blown rain? I'll say it again, all the various paints are just different tools in the toolbox, and each has its particular uses. Some paints will have better permeability than others, and would be more effective in a house that say has no vapor barrier. If a house has proper ventilation and moisture is under control, another tool can be employed that may not have superior permeability, but another desired quality. I sense that this is now going to devolve into a pissing match of Behr vs SW, rather than an effort to help OP solve his paint failure.
BTW, Duration says two coats of Duration over bare wood, I thought there was no such thing as a paint/primer in one?


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