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Old 04-24-2011, 04:34 AM   #16
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Do I need to prime first?


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Originally Posted by PM5K View Post
Right now I'm leaning towards the Valspar Contractor Finishes 2000. Flat for the ceiling, eggshell for the walls, and semi for the trim.

I figure I have to clean the walls to some degree no matter what, I'm sure there's dust and cobwebs. So I'm leaning towards using a stiff bristle brush, and then maybe some diluted TSP.

After that I may just try out a section to see if the paint covers without primer. If it doesn't I'll go ahead and prime it.

Thoughts?


I would forget the TSP and use Dirtex, otherwise, you're good to go.
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Old 04-24-2011, 08:03 AM   #17
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Do I need to prime first?


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Originally Posted by jsheridan View Post
Whhhyyyy? Do you want me to provide scientific data that proves that the govt forcing paint cos to remove/reduce voc's is minimizing/changing the effectiveness of products? I don't have any. But, I have extensive daily experience working with products whose qualities and characteristics I know well, and those have changed. And, I know other contractors with the same complaints. I've had discussions with paint store employees who openly admit it, they're getting complaints. I just had a discussion with a sales rep for a prominent exterior stain company who told me that practically no products are performing as they used to, and he's getting complaints. That's all the reference I can supply.
Your assertion sounded so authoritative that I assumed there was some change in government regulations that I could read. Thanks for being honest and telling me that you are assuming there is some change in government regulations based on your professional experience and that of your peers.
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Old 04-24-2011, 08:13 AM   #18
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Do I need to prime first?


PM5K, Many of the guys here who are advising you are pros that hang at PaintTalk as well. Meaning, you'll get basically the same advice there. There are no breakthroughs in painting that are going to solve your problem. You have a filthy situation there that requires some heavy duty stuff. And, I'm sure that's only one snapshot of a much wider picture. Do you really want to get down on your hands and knees and clean that mess? To me, rubber gloves wouldn't be enough, I'd wear a wetsuit. It's a rental, painting is an expense, treat it as such. What you like and what you prefer are reserved for PM5K the homeowner, and what works best in the quickest fashion with the least amount of expense is for PM5K the landlord/businessman. I suggested using oil based Cover Stain Primer Sealer, tinted to match your finish, and apply one finish over top, an off white for max hide. I suggest oil for two reasons, one is that lingering among all that filth is probably a lot of incidental stains that may bleed through latex alone--hand grease, crayon, food stuffs, water stains, etc. The second is to lock down all that filth. No paint sticks to dirt, but oil will stick better than latex. Labor is your biggest cost, use material to your advantage.
Choose a color
Have the cover stain tinted to match that color, use a 3/8 cover
Apply one top coat, eggshell, flat, whatever, use a 1/2 cover
A base coat of tinted cover stain will do all the work and you're free to use whatever brand finish you like. Two coats you're done, no cleaning, no spot priming stains and touching up, max coverage, and you'll have a much sounder surface, IMO, than with cleaning and two coats of flat. You went to PaintTalk looking for pro recommendations, there you go. No screwing around.
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Old 04-24-2011, 08:27 AM   #19
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Do I need to prime first?


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Your assertion sounded so authoritative that I assumed there was some change in government regulations that I could read. Thanks for being honest and telling me that you are assuming there is some change in government regulations based on your professional experience and that of your peers.
It's a logical conclusion Leah. The govt is requiring the manufacturers to remove components of paint formulas to meet their requirements on VOC. If those components didn't serve a purpose they wouldn't have been there to begin with. Remove a component and the problem that component resolved is no longer solved. Surely, the companies found some new ways to solve some of those problems, but not all. And some of the new found solutions are still in beta form. Some haven't been solved. We're in a lurch right now. We're in the same bind with energy, the govt is slowly starving us of brown energy while the quantity of green energy we need is not scientifically nor logistically available currently, and won't be for decades. I doubt it will take the paint companies decades to recoup, but with energy it surely will.
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Old 04-24-2011, 08:29 PM   #20
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Do I need to prime first?


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It's a logical conclusion Leah. The govt is requiring the manufacturers to remove components of paint formulas to meet their requirements on VOC. If those components didn't serve a purpose they wouldn't have been there to begin with. Remove a component and the problem that component resolved is no longer solved. Surely, the companies found some new ways to solve some of those problems, but not all. And some of the new found solutions are still in beta form. Some haven't been solved. We're in a lurch right now. We're in the same bind with energy, the govt is slowly starving us of brown energy while the quantity of green energy we need is not scientifically nor logistically available currently, and won't be for decades. I doubt it will take the paint companies decades to recoup, but with energy it surely will.
Thanks for taking the time to explain that you were talking about the reduction of VOCs. I get it, now. Don't mind me. I just really like a reference/footnote/appendix etc. And I do really appreciate you realizing I wasn't trying to be argumentative, just to understand the topic better.
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Old 04-25-2011, 02:32 AM   #21
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Do I need to prime first?


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It's a logical conclusion Leah. The govt is requiring the manufacturers to remove components of paint formulas to meet their requirements on VOC. If those components didn't serve a purpose they wouldn't have been there to begin with. Remove a component and the problem that component resolved is no longer solved. Surely, the companies found some new ways to solve some of those problems, but not all. And some of the new found solutions are still in beta form. Some haven't been solved. We're in a lurch right now. We're in the same bind with energy, the govt is slowly starving us of brown energy while the quantity of green energy we need is not scientifically nor logistically available currently, and won't be for decades. I doubt it will take the paint companies decades to recoup, but with energy it surely will.

Now there is a happy thought for the day
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Old 05-02-2011, 01:25 AM   #22
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Do I need to prime first?


When i've done this in the past i've started by washing all the walls with tsp, then sand the walls with a pole sander for best finish. Do any repairs. Priming can do only good, but with two coats you will probably be fine without it.

Flat paint will hide more blemishes, however will scuff easier than a glossier paint, so i've been told at the paint store.

Good advice too that an oil based primer would be efficient for a rental job, instead of time consuming grunt work.

Good move on switching away from Behr.

Last edited by chrisBC; 05-02-2011 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 05-03-2011, 10:37 AM   #23
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Do I need to prime first?


Lotsa good advice here...

BUT-
I come down on the side of washing the walls first.
Chrisn posted the POWDERED Dirtex picture.
Look at it...
Then look at it again...
Then BUY it & use it.
Normally this doesn't need rinsing, but in this case it may need to be!

A new prime/paint-job always does better/adheres better on a clean substrate.
Why open yourself up to possible surface-contamination paint/primer failure?!?!
THAT'S what I don't understand about NOT washing first....

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Old 05-03-2011, 04:47 PM   #24
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Do I need to prime first?


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Lotsa good advice here...

BUT-
I come down on the side of washing the walls first.
Chrisn posted the POWDERED Dirtex picture.
Look at it...
Then look at it again...
Then BUY it & use it.
Normally this doesn't need rinsing, but in this case it may need to be!

A new prime/paint-job always does better/adheres better on a clean substrate.
Why open yourself up to possible surface-contamination paint/primer failure?!?!
THAT'S what I don't understand about NOT washing first....

Faron
Faron, I hear you and understand your logic. However, OP is a landlord, that's a rental, and OP's time and material costs are charges against his bottom line. For what? What return is the added charge providing? Look at the pictures, then look at them again. Do you think the people that inhabited that place are the exception, or the rule? Do you think it's going to affect the tenant, or their desire to rent. If there's a spot or two of failure, then address them. There are probably a lot of other failed things that will keep the paint company, why worry about a little paint failure.
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Old 05-03-2011, 11:41 PM   #25
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Do I need to prime first?


Yeah, I know...those pics look kinda tough!

IMO...a wash-down isn't gonna take that long...maybe an hour.
A few hours to dry, then paint away.

The paint may well last a little longer because it's goin' on clean walls.
That's where some savings may come in.
It may be worth slightly more rent too.

But...I'll agree to disagree, respectfully, with JS!

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Old 05-04-2011, 04:34 AM   #26
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Do I need to prime first?


Faron, you may be right, that that area might take an hour or so. However, having painted a lot of apartments years ago, that is most likely a snapshot of what the entire rental unit looks like. That looks like a bedroom, what does the kitchen look like? In rental repaints, from all of my experience, the rules are very different. There's no trim sanding, caulk, what's that? Very little spackle, if any. And what does get spackled barely gets sanded, let alone dusted off. Sins get covered left and right. No drop cloths, for fear of critter transport. In the last area I lived, the average cost of repainting a two bedroom rental house was 1200-1400, which included materials. When I painted apartments years ago for a large, commercial property management company, the going rate for repaints was barely/just one third of the monthly rental value, with materials supplied. And, it gets worse price wise in some instances. It's not my taste, and I absolutely agree with you. I never got comfortable with the amount of sinning required. It's a tough racket. That OP is even asking us what to do tells me he's new to the landlord business or he owns one or two units and happened upon a bad tennant. If it's the former, I'm just trying to point him in the direction of his bottom line, because there are lot more expenses than painting. If it's the latter, well, he can wash away. It's all respectfully.
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Old 05-04-2011, 07:31 AM   #27
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Do I need to prime first?


in a dumpy apt like that i would spot prime water marks an thats it as far as prep goes !! .............all those other marks would get spot rolled with the finish as i was cuttin in then i would roll 1 compete finish coat ............like Jsheridan said its a hole new ballgame doing apts.............time is money an money is time apt style


off to work now
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Old 05-04-2011, 08:32 AM   #28
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Do I need to prime first?


In my own home I would sand flat walls and wash before priming and painting.

In my rentals, I hit the walls with a broom and put on one and only one coat of not white paint(try to get one-coat coverage with white), after fixing nail holes with caulk because I can paint over that almost instantly.
I will hit stains or dark spots with kills, (I use the spray paint version for little spots)

It's gonna get painted in a year or two anyway. Don't worry about adhesion of paint and those tpye of concerns.

My rentals always look great compared to evefrything else in their price range.
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:16 AM   #29
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Do I need to prime first?


I notice that most who lean my way refer to one coat, which is what I said in my initial post on this thread. Therefore, i was being generous in suggesting a full prime with cover stain and one full coat of finish. In reality, I would be laughed out if I suggested that to a landlord. The only time I got a landlord to apply a full coat of cs was when the unit had severe nicotine damage, and I had to fight/convince that one coat of flat wouldn't cover. They were reluctant, but agreed. It was until I finished that they were convinced. It's a totally different mindset.
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Old 05-05-2011, 06:55 AM   #30
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Do I need to prime first?


jsheridan.... you are correct about the gov regs re: VOC's. i have the same problems in structual coating with the allowable amounts of thinner that can be added. excluding red lead, paints are not getting any better or any worse for the last 50 years. the problem is with the VOC's. poor spread rates, coverage and flow....its like trying to paint with syrup in some cases.

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