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Old 01-24-2013, 04:46 PM   #31
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DO I need prime ?


I know we both could do this dance forever- but priming raw rock I think is the least complicated and important of the issues that we face here.
A better example of a constantly asked q is paper stripping- and what to put on after that.
And quite often they are sitting there with some Behr PnP semi and ready to roll.
Really good chance of paste burn . I will never say that will do it. It will not.
Gardz or Oil. Anything else is a gamble.

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Old 01-24-2013, 07:09 PM   #32
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A better example of a constantly asked q is paper stripping- and what to put on after that.
And quite often they are sitting there with some Behr PnP semi and ready to roll.
Really good chance of paste burn . I will never say that will do it. It will not.
Gardz or Oil. Anything else is a gamble.
I actually don't know as much about that so I'll take your word for it. I would like to learn more about options regarding removing wallpaper vs. techniques for painting over.
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:42 PM   #33
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Jeffnc, here's one for you. I just finished a job today. Paper removal, Gardz, patching, and two coats of finish. Customer picked a burnt orange Behr color. This lady sweats minor variations in color, she must have had 2-3 dozen swatches. But given that, she's easy to work for and her choices are made before I arrive. I made that point for a reason.
I wasn't going to risk a bad translation at a BM color station that could have resulted in an off color. She agreed. I decided to throw caution to the wind, and I followed advice you would heartily agree with, I used the Behr Ultra Premium Plus, the paint and primer in one. My first inclination was to reprime the patches with Gardz, but that would have ultimately been a full reprime. I let it all hang out and put my faith in P&P in one. Mistake. I can see some of the patches. To what extent I have have been burned I don't know. They may cure out, they may not, but she's going to tell me I know that for sure. That's the only thing I know for sure. I have used BM Aura in the same fashion and it worked beautifully, perfect.
Now, I can't in good faith or conscience, recommend that an inexperienced HO do what I did, when I can't be sure it will deliver acceptable results. BJ spoke of "insurance", which is what I should have bought on this job, meaning a full reprime with Gardz to have a uniform base coat. And you're wrong on experience versus education. I can educate you on what will happen if you touch a glowing stove element, but you'll never truly know until you touch it, and you will touch it. Education is fairly worthless when compared to experience. Education makes you smart, experience makes you wise. I'd rather be wise, and I'm wiser today than I was yesterday.

By the way, you speak of "warranties" from a paint company. They can't put 17 pages of fine print on a paint can, and they don't put them in the TDS online. They'll have a way to invalidate your warranty. You don't beat the house.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:34 AM   #34
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However you want to say it, they figured out earlier then. It's the same thing. It doesn't matter when they put the label on the bucket.

First, you're going to argue that you can't mix primer in with paint. Then you're going to argue with me when I say the paint companies have their integrated formulas that work and are warranted, and they never figured out anything.



You can bring it up every time I mention it and we can keep playing the game over and over if you want.

Yes, I have applied paint over drywall on a paying job, according to manufacturers directions, in accordance with their full warranty coverage, gotten beautiful results that has lasted.

If you want you can keep telling them that your way is the only way, and every time you do I'm going to say it's not. We can do it until we're in our graves and it's fine with me.

I give up
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:39 AM   #35
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And you're wrong on experience versus education.
Nah, I'm not. Try doing your stove experiment with electricity.

Anyway, learning by injuring yourself is just dumb. And there are many examples where doing by experience yielded terrible results for centuries, until scientific research and education provided better techniques for people.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:13 AM   #36
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DO I need prime ?


Here's what I was responding to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brushjockey
Only through that funny thing called experience would i be able to say this particular paint and primer in one was capable of adhering to an oil semi gloss finish. Or not.
You Jeff
In general, that's obviously not true. There are lots of things we can learn in other ways than by experiencing. Sometimes experience is actually misleading. I can give several examples if I have to but I'm sure you can imagine. In some cases, education is a far, far better teacher than experience. In some cases experience is a horrendous way to learn.

Me
I'm not going to chase you down some dark philosophical alley on this. I sometimes have that patience, but this isn't one of those times. Apparently, if I get burned on my job, Brush was right on there, and you were dead wrong. You quoted science at one point, and while there may be chemistry and physics involved in painting, it itself is not a science. I read the label, I educated myself. It said it can be applied over unprimed "interior surfaces". How many interior surface types? Dunno. Does that include joint compound or 45? Dunno. Maybe it tells me no on page 12 of the warranty fine print.
I think it didn't work, and may be be proven right over time. That's experience, with that particular product, on that particular surface. There are too many variables in painting for truisms. It's not science. Experience trumps education. You obviously haven't spent enough time with a brush in your hand or your head in the vapor. And we're not discussing other things of the natural world, we're talking paint. HO's and DIY's don't come here because we're educated, they can educate themselves, they come here to cut through the education BS and learn from our experience, our wisdom.

The problem I may have is that if you look at the walls from a particular angle, you don't see a flash but areas where some of the patches (why only some?) absorbed the finish at a different rate and the color itself was affected, and those areas are slightly darker. It's not full out and isn't really visible from straight on, but there is enough and it may eventually be noticed. The cost of a recoat (if that will even solve it) dwarfs the cost of the insurance I passed up on, a quick full recoat of Gardz while the room was set up and I had plenty of Gardz left. You want to recommend that risk to an inexperienced HO? Answer carefully. What I may or may not do on a job is not always what I might recommend to an HO, my experience guides what I tell them, and my conscience. You have to learn and follow the rules before you can break them without incident.

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Old 01-25-2013, 09:11 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsheridan View Post
Here's what I was responding to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brushjockey
Only through that funny thing called experience would i be able to say this particular paint and primer in one was capable of adhering to an oil semi gloss finish. Or not.
You Jeff
In general, that's obviously not true. There are lots of things we can learn in other ways than by experiencing. Sometimes experience is actually misleading. I can give several examples if I have to but I'm sure you can imagine. In some cases, education is a far, far better teacher than experience. In some cases experience is a horrendous way to learn.

Me
I'm not going to chase you down some dark philosophical alley on this. I sometimes have that patience, but this isn't one of those times. Apparently, if I get burned on my job, Brush was right on there, and you were dead wrong. You quoted science at one point, and while there may be chemistry and physics involved in painting, it itself is not a science. I read the label, I educated myself. It said it can be applied over unprimed "interior surfaces". How many interior surface types? Dunno. Does that include joint compound or 45? Dunno. Maybe it tells me no on page 12 of the warranty fine print.
I think it didn't work, and may be be proven right over time. That's experience, with that particular product, on that particular surface. There are too many variables in painting for truisms. It's not science. Experience trumps education. You obviously haven't spent enough time with a brush in your hand or your head in the vapor. And we're not discussing other things of the natural world, we're talking paint. HO's and DIY's don't come here because we're educated, they can educate themselves, they come here to cut through the education BS and learn from our experience, our wisdom.

The problem I may have is that if you look at the walls from a particular angle, you don't see a flash but areas where some of the patches (why only some?) absorbed the finish at a different rate and the color itself was affected, and those areas are slightly darker. It's not full out and isn't really visible from straight on, but there is enough and it may eventually be noticed. The cost of a recoat (if that will even solve it) dwarfs the cost of the insurance I passed up on, a quick full recoat of Gardz while the room was set up and I had plenty of Gardz left. You want to recommend that risk to an inexperienced HO? Answer carefully. What I may or may not do on a job is not always what I might recommend to an HO, my experience guides what I tell them, and my conscience. You have to learn and follow the rules before you can break them without incident.
Joe,

Great words...sage advice to less experienced painters AND homeowners looking to better educate themselves on a proper way to finish a project - and avoid problems along the way. As you know, there are several ways to finish a project successfully, depending on what your particular definition of success is. There are considerably fewer ways to properly finish a project.

The knowledge and ability to finish a project properly comes from education, experience, attitude and work ethic - without any of those factors, the actual need for quality craftsmen is kinda non-existent, isn't it? It is so unfortunate that so many "painters/contractors" today present themselves as experienced, or professional, while employing gimmicky practices (I s'pose this is common in other trades as well), but armed with the blessing of a manufacturer's limited warranty, regardless of the actual strength of said warranty.

On this forum, we all want to share our experiences with those with serious want of sound advice. In many cases, the person posing the question is in the midst of a problem that needs repair. Problems commonly appear because shortcuts were taken at the time of the original installation - the worst advice you/we can give to one experiencing such problems, is yet another shortcut system that is antagonistic to a craftsman's tried and true experiences (and, no, that is not an attitude of "we've always done it this way, therefore...")

So...when you/we hear advice given from anyone so willing to cut corners (because they have the mfrs. blessing), you/we want to step in and offer a more time-proven recommendation to avoid (or solve) problems...and that's where we get sucked into these inane debates. You/we then waste your/our breath trying to convince those who argue for the sake of arguing, standing on the very general written instructions on the back of a can, infusing ridiculous & irrelevant (albeit intelligent sounding) analogies of shampoo and stud sizes, then claim victory by simply, but always, having the last word in a frustrating, foolhardy argument.

Joe, I know I'm not telling you anything you didn't already know - I'm pretty certain we're on the same page here...so while I address this post to you, my comments are really more directed to those with reasonable, legitimate questions of applications and recommendations, and with expectations of the best advice. If anyone is confused by these debates, I hope they'll step back and mull over the logic of the presentations of both perspectives - then consider that any advice that centers on shortcuts, or the elimination of important steps in a successful application of product, may not be their best solution.

Peace to all...

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Old 01-25-2013, 09:43 AM   #38
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I want answers. you want answers? I want the truth. You cant handle the truth. Sorry experience trumps education .education is what you get from all the new collage boys and girls behind the counter at your real paint stores . there are the ones that do no paint and how to apply it but its getting few and far between these days .So what am I saying as I sit here not working on this cold Friday. You want me on that wall . You need me on that wall.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:26 AM   #39
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Boy, chemistry is kind of complicated.
Got that right...

A degree in Chemistry (where you only get to study to scratch the surface of chemical knowledge) doesn't get you anywhere these days, and most companies who employ chemists are looking at PhDs in their particular field - i.e. 7 years of study - like the ones at most good paint companies. Or at Proctor&Gamble. Or at Unilever. Or Dow Chemical. Or at BenjaminMoore. Or anywhere chemicals are combined.

Not to belabour the point but yes oil is non-polar and water is polar; that's why we owe a lot to emulsifiers to get them to mix. Same with anionic soaps and cationic conditioners...On the face of it, these two elements don't work well when mixed together - so the chemists have to look at other molecules to achieve the purpose of a 'two-in-one' - and I think paints-and-primers in one is an example in point - although not quite really.

But it is true that paint formulations and primer formulations are two optimized versions of the same chemical principles of suspending solids in a solvent. In PnP chemistry, it's a question of reducing some properties of one, adding properties to another and getting a compromise, IMO, and a lesser version of each when combined, and optimizing that formulation into a final product that resembles a paint to a consumer. A pro can use it - but it won't suit him in many circumstances where it will satisfy the average consumer who doesn't have anything to compare it to.

As for "cleaners", there is a whole other set of chemical principles that relate to solvency of the "average" soil components - and here it's a question of the more solvents you have in a bottle, the better it will clean the average substrate. Of course, exceptions will always exist.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:43 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsheridan View Post
I sometimes have that patience, but this isn't one of those times.
Based on the length of your reply, obviously it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsheridan View Post
Apparently, if I get burned on my job, Brush was right on there, and you were dead wrong.
As I mentioned, try it again with electricity. I am right, and you are dead.

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Originally Posted by jsheridan View Post
You quoted science at one point, and while there may be chemistry and physics involved in painting, it itself is not a science.
WTF are you talking about? Of course it is. Paint chemistry is a well established science.

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Originally Posted by jsheridan View Post
I read the label, I educated myself. It said it can be applied over unprimed "interior surfaces".
You're not serious? Obviously I don't mean educate yourself by reading manufacturer advertising. You need to get it other ways.

Let me give you one obvious example. When you post on this forum, do you expect the readers to listen to your advice, or are you just blowing hot air? Because I've heard you telling homewners what to do many times. Yet I've never heard you once say "Go figure it out by yourself and learn from your experience."

So that in itself proves you wrong. You do expect people to learn from you rather than fail by their own experience.

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Old 01-25-2013, 01:02 PM   #41
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Sorry experience trumps education .education is what you get from all the new collage boys and girls behind the counter at your real paint stores .
You cannot be serious. The ones that I've talked to are very poorly educated with regarding to paint chemistry and application. Almost to the point of being useless.

Experience is a great teacher for some things, and a horrible teacher for other things. The combination of both is good for many things.

Complete reliance on experience and rejecting education is one reason the trades industry as a whole lags so far behind so many other advanced fields. In general, the trades attract people who do not care much for education and learning as whole to begin with (the fine gentlemen of this forum excluded of course ), and is full of people who learned one way to do things (from a guy who also wasn't very educated) and have been doing it that way ever since. Dogma abounds.

Sharing experience, however, is education, and that is the "raison d'ętre" of this very forum. Anyone coming to the forum to write that experience is important and education is not, while dispensing advice, is being hopelessly hypocritical. Hopefully by now you see the inherent irony.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:25 PM   #42
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Jeff- I have some raw knotty pine tongue and groove to paint. It is OK to put Behr semi right on it? It says self priming?
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:27 PM   #43
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Jeff- I have some raw knotty pine tongue and groove to paint. It is OK to put Behr semi right on it? It says self priming?
Don't be an idiot. We already had this discussion yesterday. Go look it up if you care.
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Old 01-25-2013, 02:54 PM   #44
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But I am an idiot. I don't have none of the book learnin like you, I might be doing it wrong.
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:10 PM   #45
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The contractor is a licenced contractor, he got good review from our friend. ...He gives 5 year warranty for all his job.
As you can see, painters love to discuss primer.

Surface prep is key. I don't think you'd make the situation worse by using the proper primer for your conditions. I'm not convinced that you need a primer if the base was primed and painted and in good condition. Except that a prime coat may help eliminate a color coat (always two color coats, minimum). In your case, I don't think three color coats is superior to one primer and two color coats - but that difference may be negligible.

The only thing that gives me pause about your painter is the insinuation that he would use only one color coat over a prime coat.

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