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Old 01-23-2013, 09:41 AM   #16
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DO I need prime ?


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Originally Posted by chrisn View Post
NO there is not, never was, never will be. Paint is paint, primer is primer.
You paint guys say this all the time. Is there a (pun intended) primer on what the difference is somewhere? If you took a two gallon bucket and dumped one can of primer and one can of paint in it and used it.... what would happen?

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Old 01-23-2013, 09:47 AM   #17
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Your missing the point.
Primers do a bunch of different things- seal, adhesion, stain blocking- to mention a few. They are high resin, low solids ( low coverage)
I carry 5 different kinds of primers. And i have a reason for each.

Paints are high solids- cover better- give whatever qualities of that particular paint like scuff resistance and washability etc.

Some paints can do SOME of the functions of a primer- but only the most basic.

Know the problem- know the primer. they are PROBLEM SOLVERS.
If you don't have any problem- go ahead and use the all in wonders. Its just a way to market the paint.
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Old 01-23-2013, 05:58 PM   #18
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DO I need prime ?


[QUOTE=TheBobmanNH;1100076]You paint guys say this all the time. Is there a (pun intended) primer on what the difference is somewhere? If you took a two gallon bucket and dumped one can of primer and one can of paint in it and used it.... what would happen?[/QUOTE]


complete and utter failure most likely
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Old 01-23-2013, 06:04 PM   #19
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DO I need prime ?


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Originally Posted by TheBobmanNH View Post
You paint guys say this all the time. Is there a (pun intended) primer on what the difference is somewhere? If you took a two gallon bucket and dumped one can of primer and one can of paint in it and used it.... what would happen?
It is confusing Bob because you read responses here and things tend to get exaggerated. You read manufacturers' ads and things tend to get hyped the other way.

The fact is, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Regular paint does some of what primers do, and sometimes that alone is enough. Primers are sometimes for adhesion. Sometimes paint adheres very well. etc.

I very much doubt that all hell would break loose if you mixed a latex drywall primer into your paint. Which is not to say it would work as well as if you didn't. However this is not what manufacturers do when they sell "paint and primer in one". They figured out the custom chemistry.

It might not function as well as separate, specialized primer and paint, but then you might not need it to either.
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Old 01-23-2013, 07:43 PM   #20
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As a pro painter- i am comparing and learning about each and every product I use and what it can and can't do. Daily.
Can't expect that kind of knowledge from an occasional weekend painter. So it is much safer to say- use a primer (and and the right one- they are not all the same)
then to just say go ahead use the all in one paints.
Its called insurance.
Much easier than fixing it if it fails.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:22 AM   #21
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DO I need prime ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffnc View Post
It is confusing Bob because you read responses here and things tend to get exaggerated. You read manufacturers' ads and things tend to get hyped the other way.

The fact is, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Regular paint does some of what primers do, and sometimes that alone is enough. Primers are sometimes for adhesion. Sometimes paint adheres very well. etc.

I very much doubt that all hell would break loose if you mixed a latex drywall primer into your paint. Which is not to say it would work as well as if you didn't. However this is not what manufacturers do when they sell "paint and primer in one". They figured out the custom chemistry.

It might not function as well as separate, specialized primer and paint, but then you might not need it to either.
They did not figure out anything, it was there all along

You want to experiment on a paying job and report back?
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:24 AM   #22
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I appreciate the input all. My question wasn't meant to be a challenge in any way, I'm legit curious.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:44 AM   #23
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Can't expect that kind of knowledge from an occasional weekend painter. So it is much safer to say- use a primer (and and the right one- they are not all the same)

All painters are not the same, either.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:26 PM   #24
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I can remember the day when someone thought of the idea that when doing your laundry using detergent and softenener, well then why don't we combine them in one product? The result was called 'Fab-one-Shot', I think. But it flopped big-time for Proctor & Gamble...

In a similar vein, theire are shampos and conditioners-in-one - and the jury is still out on that product...the reality is that you get a crappy cleaner then a crappy conditioning - all the time.

Now this isn't at all like mixing a paint and a primer; here you might get something that resembles a paint, but it'll most likely be the consistency of water. See, paints and primers are optimized formulations for the paint or the primer in question. Add the two together and you'll disrupt the delicate balance between all the separate ingredients.

Most likely the manufacturers took the qualities of one and blended them with the properties of the other then optimized that combination in a stable, thick product that can pass as a paint...either way it's a compromise on both accounts.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:30 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisn View Post
They did not figure out anything, it was there all along
However you want to say it, they figured out earlier then. It's the same thing. It doesn't matter when they put the label on the bucket.

First, you're going to argue that you can't mix primer in with paint. Then you're going to argue with me when I say the paint companies have their integrated formulas that work and are warranted, and they never figured out anything.

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You want to experiment on a paying job and report back?
You can bring it up every time I mention it and we can keep playing the game over and over if you want.

Yes, I have applied paint over drywall on a paying job, according to manufacturers directions, in accordance with their full warranty coverage, gotten beautiful results that has lasted.

If you want you can keep telling them that your way is the only way, and every time you do I'm going to say it's not. We can do it until we're in our graves and it's fine with me.

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Old 01-24-2013, 02:37 PM   #26
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In a similar vein, theire are shampos and conditioners-in-one - and the jury is still out on that product...the reality is that you get a crappy cleaner then a crappy conditioning - all the time.
You might or might not be right when it comes to shampoo - I don't know.

But you're missing the point. When stated as you did, it's misleading. The question is not whether it's optimal, the question is whether it makes a difference.

When they build houses, they use 2x4s for the walls. 2x12s would be stronger. There is no denying that. 2x4s are weak compared to 2x12s. Yet they use 2x4s and no one on this forum will ever tell a homeowner to frame their new dividing wall with 2x12s. Why not? Because it's better, but it's not needed.

Once something gets up to a threshold of performance acceptance, it no longer matters.

And so it is with paint. You guys telling people they always have to use primer
- because that's the way you've always done it
- because you've seen it fail without
- because you saw flashing

or whatever other reason, it doesn't mean they need it all the time.

Saying a primer is always needed is like saying you need to use 2x12s to build a house. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't.

You can tell people all day long "don't take the cheap route, do it right" blah blah blah. But using 2x12s in a wall is just plain wasteful, even if it is better and stronger than 2x4s. Will it make your wall stronger? Yes. Does it matter? No. But hey, "it's insurance", right brushjockey?

Sometimes you need to prime, sometimes you don't. You can argue with this all day long but it will never change.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:50 PM   #27
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In a similar vein, theire are shampos and conditioners-in-one - and the jury is still out on that product...the reality is that you get a crappy cleaner then a crappy conditioning - all the time.
Yeah that one really boggles the mind, as shampoo and conditioner kind of do opposite things. That one's more analogous to... paint thinner and paint all in one.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:58 PM   #28
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Yeah that one really boggles the mind, as shampoo and conditioner kind of do opposite things.
Well since we're keeping up with this one, let's think about it.

So shampoo cleans stuff off, and conditioner leaves something on. So you would think, they can't possibly work together. This is the knee-jerk, first reponse, common sense answer. "That's dumb. Do they think we're idiots?"

Chemistry isn't that simple. Right off the top of my head, I can easily think of a situation where a certain cleaner (soap or whatever) won't clean a particular substance, but will clean another.

Let's say I'm putting silicone caulk on and get some on my hands. Will soap and water clean it? No, soap doesn't work on silicone. But mineral spirits does.

So, what would happen if I mixed soap and silicone? Would it be possible to clean something and leave something at the same time? Let's say my hands had butter on them, and I want to get rid of the butter, but leave a silicone film on my hands. Would washing with a soap/silicone product do that for me?

How about soap/mineral spirits product, what would that do?

How does soap work to begin with? I mean, water is a polar molecule, and oil is a non polar molecule, so how can soap work with both of them?

Boy, chemistry is kind of complicated.
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:58 PM   #29
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My point- that I will continue to make- is that primers solve problems.
If the paint says paint and primer in one- and I have water stains- it won't work.
Only through that funny thing called experience would i be able to say this particular paint and primer in one was capable of adhering to an oil semi gloss finish. Or not. Just cause the can says self priming- what does that mean? Usually that means you can paint over paint, or raw rock. Basic .
Much better to tell those who don't play with paints to use a product that was made for that problem, than take a chance that it MIGHT work,.
Yes that is the insurance I am talking about.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:33 PM   #30
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My point- that I will continue to make- is that primers solve problems.
Agreed.

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If the paint says paint and primer in one- and I have water stains- it won't work.
As far as I know, agreed, but who knows, maybe they're putting out something as we speak. "Primer" is a very general term. "Stain blocker" is more specific. Buying a "primer" to cover water stains (whether PaP-in-one or a separate product) would be about the same as buying "paint" to put on your house siding. It has to be the type that works. For stains, you'd look for a stain blocking primer, which as far as I know no PaP-in-one claims to be.

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Originally Posted by Brushjockey View Post
Only through that funny thing called experience would i be able to say this particular paint and primer in one was capable of adhering to an oil semi gloss finish. Or not.
In general, that's obviously not true. There are lots of things we can learn in other ways than by experiencing. Sometimes experience is actually misleading. I can give several examples if I have to but I'm sure you can imagine. In some cases, education is a far, far better teacher than experience. In some cases experience is a horrendous way to learn.

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Just cause the can says self priming- what does that mean?
Who knows? Depends on the manufacturer and the paint. If we read the directions we can figure it out.

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Usually that means you can paint over paint, or raw rock. Basic .
As far as I know, yes. Basic, and most of the time exactly what people are doing. In other words, the basic situation is pretty darn common.

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Much better to tell those who don't play with paints to use a product that was made for that problem, than take a chance that it MIGHT work. Yes that is the insurance I am talking about.
Don't agree. Again, this is similar to saying "I know 2x12s are strong enough. Why take a chance with 2x4s for your building needs?"

No one recommends over-building things beyond some certain threshold, because of the expense and trouble and labor involved. Why would you? A little education trumps the insurance you want.

An example of a paint that was made for the "problem" of drywall is SuperPaint. It was made for the problem of painting directly over drywall. It is not going to fail in solving the problem of adhering to the drywall and providing a good substrate for the finish coat of paint. It is not really "self priming", but rather can serve both roles depending on where it's used.

Similar to the way an incandescent light bulb can be used to produce heat, or it can be used to produce light, or both. (See Easy Bake Oven, desk lamp, Lava Lamp). You don't need a separate heater in a Lava Lamp, and it would be silly to recommend adding one for "insurance". Your oven is different. In your oven, you want a separate heating element and light source. But what you don't do is recomend using an oven to make a Lava Lamp, no matter how good of a Lava Lamp it could make.

[Having said all that, most people would be surprised at how many times a single coat of SuperPaint over bare drywall would solve all problems, and lots of time and money. It's not warranted, but it still often works, and in this case actually is "self priming".]

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