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Old 12-24-2008, 12:28 AM   #181
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Commenting on Behr Paints


I think people in here should keep in mind that neither Behr nor Benjamin Moore nor Sherwin Williams nor Pratt & Lambert make any of the things they use to make their paints with. None of them make their own resins; they all buy them from companies that make plastics. None of them make their own pigments; they all buy them from chemical companies that specialize in different kinds of pigments. Similarily, none of them make any of their own additives.

So far as I know, the only company that makes it's own binder resins is ICI of Britain, which sells it's paints under the tradenames "CIL Dulux" in Canada and "Glidden" in both Canada and the US.

So, Behr could start making better paint simply by buying the same resins, pigments and additives from the same chemical companies that SW, BM and P&L do. The reason why they don't is a decision of Behr management. Behr knows their customers are primarily DIY'ers that only paint once every 15 years and will get their advice from Consumer Reports. If Behr's paints are of lesser quality, they will shine in the pages of Consumer Reports as long as the difference in price is commensurate. So, instead of striving to make the best paint, Behr management is striving to make the best value paint.

Chemical companies will always be pushing the paint companies to buy their latest and greatest resin, or pigment or mildewcide or rheology modifier or whatever. Of course the paint companies won't buy it unless they feel the increase in cost is justified by the increase in performance.

On company that bucked the trend was C2 Paints.
http://www.c2color.com/

C2 would buy these latest products from the chemical companies to use in their paints, and would then concentrate their advertising budget on comparing their paints to the best from SW, BM and P&L. Of course, their "independant lab tests" would confirmed that the C2 paints were higher hiding, more colourfast, self leveled better, dried harder, etc. etc. etc. than the SW, BM or P&L top line paint.

That's how C2 marketed their paints; as being better than the best SW, BM or P&L could offer. Their advertising concentrated on independant lab tests that compared C2 paints with the biggest names in the business. Obviously C2 didn't have any technical expertise to speak of, they simply relied on the technical expertise of the chemical companies to make better products.

I've noticed that they've stopped doing that. Their current advertising only says that they have 16 different colourants in their tint machines rather than the 12 that is standard in North America. And, their colour swatches are a whopping 12 inches by 16 inches in size, rather than 2 square inches or less you get with everyone else.

I only wanted to mention this so that people wouldn't get the idea that "Sherwin Williams" or "Benjamin Moore" or "Pratt & Lambert" make their own great paints. The truth is that these paint companies buy everything they put in their peints from chemical companies (except perhaps for the water and mineral spirits). It's those chemical companies that deserve the accolades for making the great binders, pigments and additives, not the paint companies for mixing and diluting as per instructions.

C2 paints is proof than ANY paint company, even Behr, can make a better paint than SW, BM or P&L; you just have to buy the latest and greatest products on offer from those chemical companies, despite the fact that the increase in bang won't justify the increase in bucks. You simply pay an independant lab to compare your paint with those on offer from BM, SW and P&L and you advertise those results. It makes you look like you have the best technical expertise.

C2 used to sell their paint out of about a half dozen locations in the USA. Now, they've enlisted a lot of independant paint retailers across North America to add C2 Paints to their product line, thereby increasing C2's market exposure significantly.

So, it's not the name on the can that makes the difference, it's the management that does. It's a management decision on what level of quality paint to make, not a limitation of each company's technical abilities. Any company wanting to make better paint simply has to buy better ingredients from their suppliers. Behr makes mediocre paints because they know their customers are DIY'ers that are much easier to please than professional painters.

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Last edited by Nestor_Kelebay; 12-24-2008 at 01:06 AM.
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Old 12-24-2008, 07:05 AM   #182
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Nestor , Well said!
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Old 12-24-2008, 07:31 AM   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirwired View Post
Valspar does not have a rep here to be as unremittingly awful as Behr, but nothing to be excited about either. And the help at Lowes is pretty similar to the help at Home Depot: luck-of-the-draw, and mostly bad. There is no compelling reason I can think of to use anything but paint-store paint. If you can't afford the good stuff, the paint store has some cheap swill they can sell too. It's just as bad as the cheap swill at Big Box (Big Boxes sell nothing else), but at least the paint store is honest about it.

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Old 12-29-2008, 01:46 AM   #184
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Hey Nestor (& all!),
C2's head Chemist was the long-time dude at P&L, b4 C2 lured him away years ago!
We're one of the 50+ Owner/Partner C2 U.S. retailers.

C2's colorants are made in Finland, by Tikkurilla...under the lable "CPS Color".
ONE QUART of HY colorant (High-strength Yellow), would equal a nice $$dinner-for-two.
(there's a YL, Low-strength Yellow too...along with 14 other colorants)

Some weeks, it's our top-selling brand, despite the $40+/gal price.
Once I used it...SORRY....ain't using anything else....

Here's the enormous chip-racks...



...and the $20,000 tinter set-up. 8 colorants on each side.


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Old 12-29-2008, 08:55 PM   #185
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This all very interesting. Up until now, I thought that all paint was pretty much the same.
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Old 01-07-2009, 05:01 AM   #186
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I may be a minority of one, but I have had no problems with Behr's flat enamel for application or coverage with brushes or rollers. It's stickier than some paints, for lack of a better word, but that's not a problem.

Coverage is what I expect - varies depending on what color is going on the wall and the existing paint color. Pastel over pastel or off white has been 1-coat coverage. Pastel over medium blue was not quite 1-coat in the closet so the rest of the room will get a high-hide white primer.
1 - I know how to cut in and feather edges with a brush.
2 - I don't try to squeeze the last molecule of paint out of the roller.
3 - I know how to feather the edges of a painted patch with a roller.
4 - I don't overpaint or try to touch up areas that aren't completely dry.

And Behr is one of the few that I can work with without getting a headache (Glidden is the other readily available one - was my favorite paint as a slumlord). There's something used in most of the "pro" paints that I am sensitive to. Frazee used in my workplace (one floor away, other end of the building) sent me home for two days until it cured.

Last edited by Tsu Dho Nimh; 01-07-2009 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 01-07-2009, 06:51 AM   #187
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pseudonym.... cute.... i agree with you and greytguy though, i never gave it much thought when i bought paint for small jobs around the house.
if it slopped on and covered in one coat, great! if not, do another!

this being a DIY site, i feel i should add a few ways to save $$$ buying paint.

1: Habitat for Humanity (does not accept open can paint donations, well, they're not SUPPOSED to anyways)

2: S&W or BM dumpster diving (if you don't mind whatever colors they throw out)

3: S&W or BM or whoever paint store returns/overstocks/discontinued/backroom inventory (ask the manager! we decided on tile red-ish trim for $2 a gallon this way)

4: Pic n' Save or BigLots type stores for smaller quantities. usually around $5.00 a gallon!

Happy Painting!

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Old 01-08-2009, 04:18 PM   #188
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Never heard of C2 Who sells them? Doesnt look like a paint store with the BBQs on the shelf.
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Old 01-08-2009, 05:35 PM   #189
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They only have a very limited number of dealer's; like 70 nationwide and mostly in the North East. Too bad as with all the good I have heard, if they had a store in Ohio I would certainly give them a try.

http://www.c2color.com/store-locator/index.php

See if you are lucky enough to have a store within 1000 miles.
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Old 01-08-2009, 08:00 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubbagump View Post

See if you are lucky enough to have a store within 1000 miles.
There are 3, 45 miles south in N Va.
Mat as well be 100 miles, any time you have to drive past DC its a bad dream.
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Old 01-09-2009, 05:33 AM   #191
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any time you have to drive past DC its a bad dream.

That is putting it mildly!
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Old 03-13-2009, 08:05 AM   #192
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I've used Behr in almost every room in my house. It may not be the best paint to work with but I feel the rooms look really good. I used Sherwin Willams in the kitchen (Cashmere) and it looks good as well. I did some of the painting but my father in law did most of it. He is a Benjamin Moore fan but thought that Behr wasn't too bad to work with. I can understand why pro painters hate Behr but for painting on a budget, Behr is just fine. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 03-14-2009, 07:27 AM   #193
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that Behr wasn't too bad to work with



worth repeating

"better to leave the walls bare than put Behr on the walls"
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Old 04-20-2009, 11:41 AM   #194
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We used Behr paint before on our old house. Thought it was okay. Until we tried Sherwin Williams paint one day. Then we never went back to Behr. Not even close to being as good as Sherwin Williams. Would not hold up as long. Looked fine when we first used it but the area needed to be repainted within a couple of years. I would not waste my money on it again. Seems it was the cheapest route. We knew that too. Guess it goes to show that you get what you pay for. Definitely spend a little more and get a better paint.
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Old 08-17-2009, 06:00 PM   #195
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The prep is important for any house work. Bring me any paint i will make the house last long.
12 years i have paint houses with american finest , Behr , Glidden still look nice like almost new. (I have photos to prove my point and customers to call )

Nice prep 2 thick coats of primer and no matter what paint it will make the house look nice for years.

BM paint is crap the reason of the high cost is because of the enormous advertisement the company does to promote the products.

C2 is nice paint it holds vibrant colors more but again a nice work should be 2 coats of primer and 2 coats of finish which means any cheap paint will do JUST PERFECT for 6-10 years .

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