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Old 03-05-2008, 04:34 AM   #136
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If you are calling TiO2 a "filler", you don't know much, if anything, about paint, and are exactly the reason most folks here advise people to go to paint stores. TiO2 is primarily what makes white paint white; it is a pigment. Accent/Deep Color paints don't have much TiO2 because that would give you a more pastel-like color instead of the color you were going for; pigments out of the tint machine are used instead. (That is also why deeper bases have less paint in the can... more room for the tint they need from the machine.)

Paint is far more than just pigment, polymer, and solvent...

The other ingredients you mentioned... many of them are vital parts of their paint formulations. All the "chemistry" on the paint label has many different uses: some of them help keep pigment in suspension, some extend open time/prevent skinning, some provide (or reduce) sheen, some improve flow, others reduce spatter, yet more aid in leveling, others enhance adhesion... there are mildewcides, solvents, flex enhancers, etc.

Are some of those ingredients "filler" that do little else but bulk up the dry-film or the can contents? Yes. But most of those ingredients are not, and were put there for other purposes than to reduce cost. How you can automatically assume that an ingredient labeled "trade secret" is there solely to reduce cost is beyond me.

If this is what Masco and/or HD is putting in your training materials, then they are scummier than I thought.

What the heck does "100% Acrylic" mean, anyway? Given that the vast majority of what is in the can in any paint, cannot, by definition, be an Acrylic, this is somewhat confusing. ("Acrylic" refers to a specific set of chemical compounds, and TiO2 certainly isn't one.)

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Old 03-07-2008, 09:54 PM   #137
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I would be remiss if I didn't back up the accuracy of sirwired's technical information
Especially that Titanium Oxide is NOT a filler
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Old 03-07-2008, 10:40 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirwired View Post
If you are calling TiO2 a "filler", you don't know much, if anything, about paint, and are exactly the reason most folks here advise people to go to paint stores. TiO2 is primarily what makes white paint white; it is a pigment. Accent/Deep Color paints don't have much TiO2 because that would give you a more pastel-like color instead of the color you were going for; pigments out of the tint machine are used instead. (That is also why deeper bases have less paint in the can... more room for the tint they need from the machine.)



Paint is far more than just pigment, polymer, and solvent...

The other ingredients you mentioned... many of them are vital parts of their paint formulations. All the "chemistry" on the paint label has many different uses: some of them help keep pigment in suspension, some extend open time/prevent skinning, some provide (or reduce) sheen, some improve flow, others reduce spatter, yet more aid in leveling, others enhance adhesion... there are mildewcides, solvents, flex enhancers, etc.

Are some of those ingredients "filler" that do little else but bulk up the dry-film or the can contents? Yes. But most of those ingredients are not, and were put there for other purposes than to reduce cost. How you can automatically assume that an ingredient labeled "trade secret" is there solely to reduce cost is beyond me.

If this is what Masco and/or HD is putting in your training materials, then they are scummier than I thought.

What the heck does "100% Acrylic" mean, anyway? Given that the vast majority of what is in the can in any paint, cannot, by definition, be an Acrylic, this is somewhat confusing. ("Acrylic" refers to a specific set of chemical compounds, and TiO2 certainly isn't one.)

SirWired
nope you are wrong sirwired Titanium oxide is not a pigment. it is a solid that is the main filler to the behr paint formula. 30% by volume for ultra pure white and decreases for pastel, accent, and deep bases. You're reffered to KX which is the universal white pigment for all paint companies. KX pigment is limestone and talc mostly. Titanium oxide also provide the best coverage in "all brands". looking at MSDS shows the contents of paints most brands have more clay, talc, kaolin, and so on. those fillers don't have the hiding power of Titanium oxide. Behr, Kilz, BM, outperform SW due to the higher content of Titanium oxide.

Considering chemical makeup of some brands wouldn't you agree that fatty acid esters and propanic acids are going to break down a paint?

100% styrene acrylic polymer is used in the formula. styrene acrylic has the best scrub resistance, adhesion, and pigment dispersion.

My contractors that have switched completely to behr products are, receiving better job lot quote, spending less time at a clients home, using less product for applications, getting more jobs, and making allot more money.
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Old 03-08-2008, 07:10 AM   #139
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nope you are wrong sirwired Titanium oxide is not a pigment. it is a solid that is the main filler to the behr paint formula.
Titanium Dioxide not a pigment? HuhWhat!?!?! I'm confused... you seem to have all the other properties of TiO2 correct (high hide, coverage, etc.), but you insist it is a "filler"? What do you think a pigment is then?

From Wikipedia, the very first sentence under "Applications" for TiO2:
"Titanium dioxide is the most widely used white pigment [emphasis mine] because of its brightness and very high refractive index (n=2.7), in which it is surpassed only by a few other materials..." Later on... "TiO2 is also an effective opacifier in powder form, where it is employed as a pigment [again, emphasis mine] to provide whiteness and opacity to products such as paints, coatings, plastics, papers, inks, foods, medicines (i.e. pills and tablets) as well as most toothpastes."

Quote:
Considering chemical makeup of some brands wouldn't you agree that fatty acid esters and propanic acids are going to break down a paint?
I would agree to no such thing. There is much more to paint than what is left on the wall (the vehicle (such as acrylic styrene), pigment, and fillers) when you are done. Some of the additives do things like increase open time, aid in leveling, increase pigment dispersal, resist mildew, etc.

I can't find "Propanic Acid", except as an apparent misspelling (or maybe synonym... ask an organic chemist) of Propanoic Acid, which is a synonym for Propionic Acid. Propionic Acid Esters are indeed present in paints, but those pains include Behr Interior Flat Deep Base. Oh, and the 2-Methyl Propionic Acid Monoster in that specific Behr paint? It's a Fatty Acid Ester... I hope it doesn't "break down paint" too much, since Behr puts it in its own paint.

Propenoic acid is also a common paint ingredient, including, again, of Behr Interior Flat Deep Base.

Quote:
30% by volume for ultra pure white and decreases for pastel, accent, and deep bases.
I don't know where you are getting a 30% TiO2 content from the Behr MSDS. The MSDS for Behr Premium Interior Flat Ultra Pure White states a range anywhere from 10-30%. It also states an equal percentage of Nephaline Syenite, which is a kind of silica-based mineral. (Just as talc is, actually...) All paints have non-pigment solids in them; brands just vary as to which ones and how much. And yes, lower-end paints from any brand do indeed have less TiO2, and more random silica-based solids (talc, clay, whatever...) I suspect Behr doesn't want to disclose their exact formula, and I wouldn't blame them for that...

The Behr MSDS (as are Ben Moore's) are not at all useful for determining paint composition, since they all give a range (Ben Moore gives a Max.) SWP's provide the actual composition (of the hazardous ingredients only, of course), instead of a range.

Quote:
100% styrene acrylic polymer is used in the formula.
As far as the Styrene Acrylic goes... okay... yes, they can make a good base. However, Styrene Acrylic is not some magic Behr invention... SWP Duration, and I am sure other other paint brands, also use Styrene Acrylics of some sort.

What does it mean to say that the paint has 100% Styrene Acrylic? Since obviously there are other things in the paint other than the Styrene Acrylic (like pigment, water, silica, etc.) what is it 100% of? Is the Styrene Acrylic 100% of itself?

Quote:
You're reffered to KX which is the universal white pigment for all paint companies.
That's strange... I google for "kx pigment", and I get all of two hits, one of which is this very discussion. For a "universal" pigment, it sure is hard to find information about it... If I google it as something other than a phrase, it appears to be a property of a pigment, not a pigment itself. KX also refers to the brand name of a silicone paint binder for heat-resistant paint made by some German chemical company. Again, not a pigment.

......

Saying that you have some customers that are pleased with Behr paint and use it to make more money is certainly something you can state, and of course, very likely to be true. (Although not a view shared by some other Behr paint customers, many of which have posted here with their woes.) But if you are going to make objective, allegedly factual, statements, do some more research before making statements that are easy to demonstrate as not true (TiO2 is not a pigment) or not well supported. (fatty acid esters break down paint)

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Old 03-08-2008, 08:43 AM   #140
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Just a small point for this discussion is that the use of TiO2 has a point of diminishing return. So anyone, Behr or otherwise, claiming they have the most Ti02 doesn't really mean much. The increase in hide at that point let's say between 30% and 34% wouldn't even be able to be seen by the naked eye.

Sirwired is correct, that it is the synergistic properties of the paint when it is complete that makes it perform, not the individual components.

I also like the commercial that says that Behr has the whitest base, so its easier to get to the colors that you want. Of course, painters would know that this is a stupid comment because the colorant changes the paint anyway. The only thing it may do is save some colorant for the retailer. But it does absolutely nothing for the person who purchases the paint. If you like a color, and pick a color, you'll get that color, no matter how white the base is. At an SW store, HD, Lowe's or a Benjamin Moore store.
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Old 03-09-2008, 09:35 PM   #141
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You know what they say, "the difference in a professional and a novice is, the pro knows how to fix his/her mistakes". This is why a pro painter can use any paint; some better than others.

I recently painted a small bathroom with Behr top-of-the-line latex. I thought that it was okay, but would think twice about using it again. On the other hand, I recently helped my daughter paint a large room with top-of-the-line Pittsburgh latex. I don't believe there is anyone who can mess it up. Sometimes when you paint over the top of newly applied paint, it leaves shinny spots. Not with the Pittsburgh paint. Like I say, I found it to be foolproof.

Just my $.02.

Last edited by Handyman50; 03-09-2008 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 03-10-2008, 09:10 AM   #142
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wow, all this discussion over paint......I've only ever used Behr, and have had no problems or complaints, but I guess ignorance is bliss. I'm looking forward to my next project so I can try Benjamen Moore or Sherwin Williams. I can see it now "OMG, I'VE BEEN MISSING THIS ALL THESE YEARS?"
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Old 03-10-2008, 10:55 AM   #143
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I think Benjamin Moore is an extraordinary, high quality paint. My dad and uncle swore by it back in the 50's and I grew up in NY using it almost exclusively and I would specifically buy it for my own home, hands down. And, there are other exceptional national brands as well, e.g. Sherwin-Williams for one. But and for as long as HD continues to finance consumer purchases over $299 interest-free for 6 mos. minimum - 12 mos. very frequently - we can all be Las Vegas betting sure that Behr, or whatever brand they choose to carry down the road, will continue to sell and sell very well.

Sometimes, it's not about the best or highest quality. Very often, it's all about the deal that one cannot refuse. When folks are trying to spruce up their digs on a budget, working with someone else's money at no additional cost is always going to be a plus and a major selling point. I mention this again only because Behr remains a force to be reckoned with as it is the single most dominant brand for John Q. and Jane Public to be inundated with AND it is plentiful AND it is readily available. Like horse doo-doo out West, it's everywhere.

Last edited by End Grain; 03-10-2008 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 03-10-2008, 04:23 PM   #144
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Well, I decided to see what Consumer Report has to say about paint. Here is the best rated interior paints in that order:

Kilz - Casual colors satin (Walmart) 86 out of 100 (CR Best Buy)

Valspar - Signature Colors (Lowe’s) - 83

Benjamin Moore - Aura - 83

Valspar - Signature Colors (Lowe’s) - 81

Behr - Premium Plus Enamel (Home Depot) - 80

True Value - Easy Care - 79

Then, it is down-hill from there. Sherwin-Williams is rated in the 40's.

I know SW is spoken highly of here, but I swore I would never use it again several years ago. I am not a pro painter, but I have owned 9 homes and painted for many others. So, I am a decent painter. Behr worked far better for me. However, I believe that my favorite is Pittsburgh.

I have purchased numerous items based on CR's ratings and have never been steered wrong. I think is interesting based on what we have all said about our likes and dislikes in paint. FWIW!

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Old 03-10-2008, 08:43 PM   #145
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Again, please keep in mind CR does not use professional painters, and/or professional painter's paint criteria, for judging the paints
They are simple, easy to replicate, tests based on what an uninformed (in painting and painting techniques) person may think is important in a paint

If professional painters and/or field results in less than perfect/ideal situations were used, the results would be very, very, different

Some respond to this that they are DIYers and don't need "professional" paint products
Trust me when I tell you that professionals and homeowners goals when doing a painting projects are the same
It's just that DIYers tend to greatly undervalue their own time, and will give up some quality of finish to say they did it themselves
(wouldn't you rather finish painting the bathroom by 2PM on Saturday then spend all day Saturday and all day Sunday doing it...AND have it look professional)
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Old 03-10-2008, 08:56 PM   #146
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Again, please keep in mind CR does not use professional painters, and/or professional painter's paint criteria, for judging the paints
They are simple, easy to replicate, tests based on what an uninformed (in painting and painting techniques) person may think is important in a paint

If professional painters and/or field results in less than perfect/ideal situations were used, the results would be very, very, different

Some respond to this that they are DIYers and don't need "professional" paint products
Trust me when I tell you that professionals and homeowners goals when doing a painting projects are the same
It's just that DIYers tend to greatly undervalue their own time, and will give up some quality of finish to say they did it themselves
(wouldn't you rather finish painting the bathroom by 2PM on Saturday then spend all day Saturday and all day Sunday doing it...AND have it look professional)
My moto is, "if it looks like I did the work when I get done, I should have hired it done". Believe me when I say that my work does look professional. Agreed, it takes me longer to get professional results, but I do get them.

Last edited by Handyman50; 03-11-2008 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 04-22-2008, 08:54 PM   #147
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This has me so depressed.

I recently purchased my first house and I'm redoing the interior. An old lady lived there and it was all pink/floral wallpaper.

I based my paint decision on Consumer Reports and I purchased Behr primer and paint for my living room, kitchen, bath and bedroom. I primed the kitchen and living room with tinted primer and have now put three coats of paint on top of the tinted primer in the kitchen. It's still not evently coated and I'll need at least a 4th coat of paint.

I could post the entire reply, but I emailed Behr and a rep. said that red (and various colors, mostly some deep reds) lack titanium dioxide (white pigments) and that is why they cover worse. I then talked to a buddy of mine who is a contractor and he recommended Benjamin Moore paint, going on to say that Behr isn't good at all. He said he felt bad that I purchased paint for four rooms before painting.

I'm now all depressed reading this, knowing I have two more cans of primer sitting in my house, two cans of taupe for the living area, a can of color for the back and the same for the bedroom. That's gotta be well over $100 of possible crap, according to what I'm reading.

Granted, like the guy from Behr said, the other colors certainly do have more white in them compared to the deep red of my kitchen, but I always take DIY'ers advice over anything (an objective, experienced voice).

Dang. Well, I'll put a 4th coat in the kitchen and I'll see how the light blue in the bedroom works out.



Sorry to bump this topic if it's old and had been beat to death, but I found it through a google search. I had to comment after reading the thread.
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Old 04-22-2008, 09:32 PM   #148
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This has me so depressed.

I recently purchased my first house and I'm redoing the interior. An old lady lived there and it was all pink/floral wallpaper.

I based my paint decision on Consumer Reports and I purchased Behr primer and paint for my living room, kitchen, bath and bedroom. I primed the kitchen and living room with tinted primer and have now put three coats of paint on top of the tinted primer in the kitchen. It's still not evently coated and I'll need at least a 4th coat of paint.

I could post the entire reply, but I emailed Behr and a rep. said that red (and various colors, mostly some deep reds) lack titanium dioxide (white pigments) and that is why they cover worse. I then talked to a buddy of mine who is a contractor and he recommended Benjamin Moore paint, going on to say that Behr isn't good at all. He said he felt bad that I purchased paint for four rooms before painting.

I'm now all depressed reading this, knowing I have two more cans of primer sitting in my house, two cans of taupe for the living area, a can of color for the back and the same for the bedroom. That's gotta be well over $100 of possible crap, according to what I'm reading.

Granted, like the guy from Behr said, the other colors certainly do have more white in them compared to the deep red of my kitchen, but I always take DIY'ers advice over anything (an objective, experienced voice).

Dang. Well, I'll put a 4th coat in the kitchen and I'll see how the light blue in the bedroom works out.



Sorry to bump this topic if it's old and had been beat to death, but I found it through a google search. I had to comment after reading the thread.
Sorry to hear about your problem, but as the rep said, red is the absolute worst color to use. Three coats to cover is not out of reason. I know that I will never use Behr paint again.

One saving grace, the other colors should be fine. I painted a bathroom with Behr paint. It was a light tan color . It covered white primer in one coat. There is a light at the end of the tunnel.
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Old 04-23-2008, 07:21 AM   #149
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Thanks, Handy. That'll be my one solace.

Once the kitchen is coated I have the urge to sand it and put a final smooth coat on. After three coats I'm getting quite the orange peel look. It's fine when you're not looking for it or if you're 4+ feet away, but it's the kind of thing that might bug me for a while.



Live and learn, I guess. I'll definitely try Benjamin Moore for my next project once my Behr stuff has run out. At least I can look forward to SOMETHING.

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Old 04-23-2008, 11:17 AM   #150
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Thanks, Handy. That'll be my one solace.

Once the kitchen is coated I have the urge to sand it and put a final smooth coat on. After three coats I'm getting quite the orange peel look. It's fine when you're not looking for it or if you're 4+ feet away, but it's the kind of thing that might bug me for a while.



Live and learn, I guess. I'll definitely try Benjamin Moore for my next project once my Behr stuff has run out. At least I can look forward to SOMETHING.
Glad to help.

Another great paint brand is "Pittsburgh". I recently helped paint a room for my daughter. They buy nothing but "Pitts" paint. From what I have found in my forty years plus of painting is, if you go over to touch-up a spot after most paints are dry, it will create a shiny spot or at least you can see it. Not with "Pitts" paints. You can not even tell that it was touched. Sometimes this can save another coat of paint.

Now about your orange peel look. Another thing that I have learned in my years of DIY is that you are normally the only one who will notice a blemish. You will forget about it soon after the job is complete. I know, I am far too picky and it even works for me.

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