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Old 05-28-2013, 09:18 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apaintedgal

Everybody calm down! ;-)

P.S. The wet mil thickness is interesting, but what it's telling you is that in that one spot, the wet film thickness was X. It doesn't account for any of the different variables involved.
I second the calming down.

Checking WTF is not an exact thing. There will of course be slight variations in the thickness of a rolled paint. To me it was (is) about getting a general idea of where your coat thickness is, compared to what the people that make the paint say it needs to be for the paint to perform like it should.

Sorry, I'm gonna tell a short story. My father who trained me, was trained and worked as a union painter. He did a lot of commercial work on gas stations, and government buildings. So, he did have a guy with a 'thingamajig er" following him around checking his thickness.
He always harped on putting more on. By the time I made 'journeyman he was 70 yrs old and didn't paint much himself. But he always told me(and all the other painters) that we didn't put enough paint on. "Why can't you guys get anything to cover! Paint covered in my day!" Etc..
Around the time he passed in 2007, I was starting to experiment with heavier coats. After a while I got used to putting paint on thicker, and was happy with the results. I thought sometimes "I'm putting two coats on at once! This is awesome!" Them one day I was looking at a spec sheet and got to wondering how the heavier coats I was putting on compared to the specs. Not knowing how to find this out, I asked a guy that did commercial painting and he told me about WFT gauges. I asked for one at SW. When I started checking, I realized that as thick as I thought I was doing it, it still fell short of 4mil, the recommended thickness to apply a lot of paints.
This realization was the best thing that ever happened to me as a painter. I'm not trying to degrade anyone, or argue at all. I think the main reason I want to share this is because it was so awesome for me It was a 'eureka' moment the first few times I got a 4mil (+or-) coat on and saw the results.
I can understand thinking thin is not important, or even that I'm nuts. All I can say is try it. I wish I has realized this sooner. It IS important how thick a coat of paint is, in fact it can make all the difference. Maybe I'm the only one that was applying too thin, and most other painters apply close to spec. If so I want to know! But no one will ever know if they won't check. My exp. on these forums leads me to believe most painters are like I was. Thinking one coat coverage was a joke.

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Old 05-28-2013, 09:18 PM   #47
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:29 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brushjockey
There is an actual paint chemist who shows up here. Listen to him if you want the real deal. His name is Ric. He knows paint.
And then there are painters who apply the stuff every day. only.
Variety of opinions, but based on doing it day in and day out.

And then there are the general contractors/ roofers/plumbers/ HVAC who also paint.
That is the real pecking order.
You DIY can choose who to listen to.
I would be Extremely interested to hear Ricks opinion on how application thickness affects coating performance. I was thinking today to research his old posts, the ones I've seen by him so far are impressive.
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:34 PM   #49
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I am always very interested in Ric's point of view. I have learned more from him here than a whole raft of once in a while painters and even those who do it all the time-
And I still don't buy the sop it on till it drips point of view. The first coat also seals, the second applied when the first is dry will do more than a real heavy first coat.
Ever heard two thin are better than one thick? i have. i believe it.
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:50 PM   #50
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"Maybe I'm the only one that was applying too thin, and most other painters apply close to spec."

No, I know different painters put on different coats. Then they try to compare everything as if it's apples to apples.

A few years ago, I was trying to get a feel for paint quotes, so I had a couple guys over to give an estimate. I wanted to know their price for painting a bedroom. The total wall square footage minus doors and windows was about 500 sf. He said he charged $75 per coat and I supply the paint. How many gallons would I need to supply? He said 2. What if I didn't want to supply the paint, what paint would you use? He said ProMar 700.

So that's what you're talking about. ProMar 700 spread out to 500 sf is somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.5 wet, .7 dry thickness. That is literally half or even less of what I put on in 1 coat of SuperPaint. And I'm wondering why they even bother, because it's an unsound business practice. But it could be because there are still customers out there who want "2 coats", without really knowing what they want.

Last edited by jeffnc; 05-28-2013 at 10:14 PM.
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:54 PM   #51
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I have never used pro mar 700. ever.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:00 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brushjockey
I am always very interested in Ric's point of view. I have learned more from him here than a whole raft of once in a while painters and even those who do it all the time-
And I still don't buy the sop it on till it drips point of view. The first coat also seals, the second applied when the first is dry will do more than a real heavy first coat.
Ever heard two thin are better than one thick? i have. i believe it.
I understand. Really. And even paints that claim to cover in one often require two for a warranty. The only point I am trying to make is paint is applying as close to spec as possible will give the best results. If a paint is made to go on at a certain thickness to a achieve its maximum performance, why not put it on that way? Two 1/2 coats are better than one, I agree. But how about two full coats? Even better maybe?
Am I really crazy for thinking this? Why does it seem so ridiculous to guys who do everything else by the book, who follow spec sheets and prep steps to the letter, to just check and see how thick the paint is going on?
Just check it out is all I'm saying, It made all the difference for me.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:01 PM   #53
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Ever heard two thin are better than one thick? i have. i believe it.
Yes, and sometimes it's just common sense that that's true. But it's also one of those things that people just keep repeating, without really knowing when it applies.

At one point in this thread I said "there's more to it than that". And how 2 coats react with each could be one of those things. Things happen to the molecular structure of paint as it dries/cures. So it could be that in the case of acrylic on interior walls, 1 coat might be better than 2, or 2 coats might somehow be better than 1, even if they both result in the same dry film thickness. Common sense would tell me that 1 thick coat is better because 1 thick coat drying all together would be "welded" together, as opposed to 2 coats that have to "glue" together. (What's better, 1 inch of concrete, or a half inch of concrete, which cures, then another half inch laid on top of it?)

But I could be wrong. Maybe a real paint chemist could tell us.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:05 PM   #54
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Whatever. Didn't even bother to read . You win /. Last word= you.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:13 PM   #55
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I have never used pro mar 700. ever.
Doesn't matter. All paints come with data sheets that list the wet and dry film thickness and recommended coverage. Makes apples to apples comparisons easy.

In fact it's the single easiest way to correlate quality. Paint cost goes up or down in direct relation to the dry film thickness the manufacturer lists, with few exceptions.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:19 PM   #56
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Why does it seem so ridiculous to guys who do everything else by the book, who follow spec sheets and prep steps to the letter, to just check and see how thick the paint is going on?
That's a good point.

As someone said, it's tricky to get the right film thickness based on the square footage you cover, because of waste on your roller, can and tray. But once you're into your second gallon, you ought to be able to figure it really closely, even without a film gauge.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:25 PM   #57
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Things happen to the molecular structure of paint as it dries/cures.
You sure? You really think so?

Back when I worked with physicists and chemists on a regular basis, as the admitted extremely overpayed Village PR idjut, and having grown up with a Mom who was an analytical paint chemist?

I think you need a cat Jeff. They are great insulators against built up anger. Get a 25 pounder orange tabby afraid of nothing. Call it Spike/Spikezilla/Smikemoto Schwartz (Jewish name for his video rolls). Or just call him Goddamit Spike as I did most of the time. Then find him a black and white tuxedo cat needing to be sewn together under a Philadelphia park bench.

Move them to NYC and spout your extreme knowledge of paint science to the American Chemical Society. They were on the next block over from my office in NY at the American Institute of Physics.

Jeff. I did great things in the white collar world. I did much better things I am ever to be more proud of in the trades. You really want to argue paint chemistry? Are you sure this is the place?

I have not balanced a chemistry equation in like 40 years. But bring on your molecular structure argument.

I think if I had to combine my love of science with my love of paint? I would need a cat again that could not only look at paint drying with purred fascination but could hear it dry.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:34 PM   #58
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Jeff.
Yes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sdsester View Post
I did great things in the white collar world. I did much better things I am ever to be more proud of in the trades.
Me too, I have a MS in something else. But I certainly wouldn't go around bragging about it when it's irrelevant to the conversation.

Quote:
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You really want to argue paint chemistry? Are you sure this is the place?
I'd be happy to argue any relevant thing with you. And I'm sure a painting forum is the correct place.

So go ahead and explain the molecular structure of paint at the interface between 2 separate coats, as opposed to the middle of a single coat. Unless that was all just bluster, of course.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:37 PM   #59
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:41 PM   #60
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This thread has gone down the tubes. there are some things worth talking about here maybe, but I think its officially been hi-jacked.


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