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Old 05-28-2013, 02:50 PM   #31
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Ease off lads and share a pint or something. Jeff comes here looking for fights. Up to you whether you want to give him one. At which point the moderators step in.
It's one thing to argue latex vs oil or brush preference, but it's something different to give out such blatantly bad advice like paint covering bare drywall and drywall repairs in one coat. If anyone else thinks I am wrong they are more than welcome to speak up but when I spot bad advice given I am going to speak up. He is also claiming all the people that had bad experiences with Behr paint are spouting nonsense because he used it once and had no problems. Good for him. If you win the very first time you pull the handle on a slot machine do you really think every pull is going to be a winner?

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Old 05-28-2013, 03:19 PM   #32
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I have given up. Let the nailbangers tell people how to paint.
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:23 PM   #33
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He is also claiming all the people that had bad experiences with Behr paint are spouting nonsense because he used it once and had no problems.
I haven't used Behr paint once. I've used paints from Behr many times. I just don't fall victim to sloppy research.

As I've said many times, Behr is not a paint. Behr is a company. Don't even bother talking about Behr paint or Sherwin Williams paint, because those aren't paints. SuperPaint is a paint. Property Solutions is a paint. Both made by Sherwin Williams - one good quality, one junky.

I also posted this experience because although I've used paint from Behr quite a few times in the past, this was a well controlled and current experience. Paint formulations change - sometimes quite often. I posted results from using Premium Plus Ultra from May 2013. If you are making comments based on any other paint or timeframe, then your comments are irrelevant.

I do not challenge anyone who says they have had bad experiences with Behr paints in the past. I challenge anyone who says current formulation of Premium Plus Ultra is junk, because it clearly is not.

Pretty much anyone with a mantra such as "Behr paint sucks" comes off sounding very ignorant, as most overly generalized things sound.
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:26 PM   #34
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If this were me and my home where I was painting worn walls, I would prime. I just would.
That is fine. Just not very scientific.

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Anyway, priming would prevent flashing on repairs and I'd give myself a little extra reassurance overall.
It certainly would, and no one ever denied that. And if the extra cost and time is reassuring to you, and reassurance to you is important, then no one is going to try to stop you.

But I'll remind you that there's a reason some people are recommending 1 coat of primer and 2 coats of paint, and not 2 coats of primer, and 3 coats of paint.
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Old 05-28-2013, 03:59 PM   #35
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However, I don't quite agree that the term ' coat' is outdated. Quite the opposite in fact. All modern latex paints ( all paints really, but to stick to talking about interior latex) have specifications for coating thickness.
My point was just that when we talk about a coat, we have to know the film thickness (wet or dry) of that coat or else we'll never be comparing apples to apples.

Let's take your idea further. Measure the wet film, but then continue - we still need to look at the spec sheets to determine the dry film thickness, which is what really matters when it comes to color coverage, scrubbability, etc.

Example:
BM Regal Select Flat specifies 3.8 wet mils at 400-450 sf coverage
BM Super Craft Flat specfies 3.8 wet mils at 400-450 sf coverage

OK, so we apply both to the wall, using our wet film gauge to ensure coverage.

BM Regal Select: 1.4 dry mils
BM Super Craft: .9 dry mils

So obviously 2 coats of Regal Select is about equal to 3 coats of Super Craft.

So anyone who claims you need 1 coat primer and 2 coats paint isn't being nearly specific enough, yet they'll insist on it. And that's assuming that they were thorough enough to measure their wet film thickness, which they're not. They don't know how thick they're putting the paint on, and they don't know how thick the paint dries, and yet they'll argue til they're blue in the fact that somehow "2" is the magic number.

In other words, to talk apples to apples, we'd need to do what you're suggesting, and then do more still.

I have never heard anyone on this forum ever talk to this level of detail. Not even close. So why are people arguing over number of coats when they don't have the slightest idea about what a coat is?

It's called false precision - in this case talking about "2 coats" vs. "1 coat" when they really have no idea what they're talking about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_precision (read the examples given)
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Old 05-28-2013, 04:00 PM   #36
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That is fine. Just not very scientific.

It certainly would, and no one ever denied that. And if the extra cost and time is reassuring to you, and reassurance to you is important, then no one is going to try to stop you.

But I'll remind you that there's a reason some people are recommending 1 coat of primer and 2 coats of paint, and not 2 coats of primer, and 3 coats of paint.
Definitely not scientific! Emotion is where it's at; to hell with science and logic and all that silly stuff, lol. I just know that when I have to clean God-Knows-What from a wall at the staircase that my kids can't travel without manhandling, that second coat of color makes me feel better about scrubbing crap off. Repeatedly. My walls get beat to crap and I don't feel like a single coat of color would be as forgiving and accepting of the wrath it would see here. And look at that, I'm attaching feelings to paint. ;-)

I'd be a little concerned about what situation on a plain jane wall in a normal home would require 2 full coats of primer and 3 of paint with the formulations/products available now. My first thought would be that someone bought some junky paint, wrong tint bases were used, primer should've been tinted and wasn't, they don't know how paint a wall, or some combination of any/all of those.
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Old 05-28-2013, 04:18 PM   #37
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Definitely not scientific! Emotion is where it's at; to hell with science and logic and all that silly stuff, lol.


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that second coat of color makes me feel better about scrubbing crap off. Repeatedly. My walls get beat to crap and I don't feel like a single coat of color would be as forgiving
I think we can all agree that 2 coats (apples to apples) are always going to be "better" than 1. So if you are wondering what I've been talking about, read on.

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I'd be a little concerned about what situation on a plain jane wall in a normal home would require 2 full coats of primer and 3 of paint with the formulations/products available now.
There aren't any such plain jane situations. I was trying to make a point, which is in a word: overkill. Of course 2 coats of primer and 3 coats of paint will always work, and if 2 coats make you feel better than 1, then 3 coats ought to make you feel at least a tiny bit better than 2, right? But even you wouldn't bother with that.

If you built your own house, would you use 2x4s for the walls, or 2x6s? 2x6s would be stronger, there is no doubt about that. But still, we'd use 2x4s, because that's good enough. Even you wouldn't use 2x6s. At some point, it's not going to make you feel better.

So why would we tell a homeowner to put 3.6 mils of paint on their walls when 2.4 mils are just fine? In other words, they only need 2 coats of Benjamin Moore "ben" paint, not 3 coats.

Or, another way to get that same 2.4 mils of paint on your wall is roll on a coat of Aura, slightly generously at about 320 sf coverage instead of 350+.

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Old 05-28-2013, 06:28 PM   #38
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My f'ing head is spinning. I've been painting for some twenty five years, and I've never measured paint thickness, wet or dry, ever. And I doubt any homeowner would. I see no need for it. I'm not coating anything going into space, underwater, or anything that will contain something that will need to be sealed in, and I have no inspectors walking around with a thing-a-ma-bob measuring my results. How is all this wasted effort keeping it simple, which it should be.
I used to think that all this arguing of stupid points had to stop, but now I could care less. I'm joining brushjockey. Let the nailbangers, roofers, and the plumbers tell the people how to paint. It's not fun or productive anymore, and I have more interesting things going on in life. I'm outta here, peace out.
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Old 05-28-2013, 06:58 PM   #39
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:37 PM   #40
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How is all this wasted effort keeping it simple, which it should be.
You didn't like my simple answer, so I had to give you the details. You couldn't understand the details, so you say it ought to be simple. Einstein said make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler. I'm making it as simple as possible, assuming you want to know what actually goes on the wall. (A real paint chemist would make my head spin.) You're not interested in the simple math, which is totally fine. For the rest of us, time and technology and knowledge march on.
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Old 05-28-2013, 08:01 PM   #41
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My home has 2x6 construction. No joke.

No, 3 coats of paint wouldn't make me feel better than 2. Diminishing returns. Or less is more, but less than 2 is ****. Something like that.

Everybody calm down! ;-)

P.S. The wet mil thickness is interesting, but what it's telling you is that in that one spot, the wet film thickness was X. It doesn't account for any of the different variables involved.

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Old 05-28-2013, 08:17 PM   #42
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My home has 2x6 construction. No joke.
ha ha talk about your badly timed analogies


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P.S. The wet mil thickness is interesting, but what it's telling you is that in that one spot, the wet film thickness was X. It doesn't account for any of the different variables involved.
Actually that was my question for jmayspaint as well. If you're applying a texture finish with a roller (i.e. has some stipple that remains in the dry finish) how do you measure the wet film thickness? It seems like it could be twice as thick at the top of a "stipple".
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Old 05-28-2013, 08:33 PM   #43
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There is an actual paint chemist who shows up here. Listen to him if you want the real deal. His name is Ric. He knows paint.
And then there are painters who apply the stuff every day. only.
Variety of opinions, but based on doing it day in and day out.

And then there are the general contractors/ roofers/plumbers/ HVAC who also paint.
That is the real pecking order.
You DIY can choose who to listen to.
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Old 05-28-2013, 08:58 PM   #44
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But Jeff, I once produced science tv and can spot a real scientist when I see one. Thanks for all your informed insight.

Never needed one in all the years working in the trades and especially decades painting. But I ordered a film paint thing from Amazon. I got the one with blinking lights that tells you whether the film thickness of paint you applied is crap or not. I will report back.
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:14 PM   #45
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And then there are the general contractors/ roofers/plumbers/ HVAC who also paint.
That is the real pecking order.
You DIY can choose who to listen to.
Watch it buster. Some of us who mostly painted are also competent GCs I hope. If someone turns them the right direction and I have my continuous lensed glasses I can even read blueprints. What they mean has baffled me for ages though. I grunt and argue with the architect at times.

"Let's renovate or build the thing so I can paint it!"

I found being licensed, bonded and insured only as a painter would not have brought me the pleasure of making the lives of sparkies, roofers, HVAC, and plumber types miserable! Of course when your fave sparky shop has trucks marked "Let us into your Shorts!" parked for ages at $500/an hour, your jobsite, even if you are trying to be quiet, gets attention.

You actually do not need a license to paint in this state and lots out there do not. Many are not bonded or insured either. I still have the reccuring nightmare that I will one day kick over a gallon of slime green colored satin enamel out an antique Persian rug I forgot to tarp. Every real painter has the same dream but with different color of course. Plumbers, electricians, roofers and even framers don't have such nightmares. They can walk away leaving messes for others to clean up.

Can they all paint? Of course.


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