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Old 05-27-2013, 04:40 PM   #16
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Sometimes I think there are certain tools and products just made for the Ray Charles school of painting and decorating..

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Old 05-27-2013, 08:06 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Matthewt1970 View Post
You are never, and let me emphasize never going to get one coat coverage on new drywall. Even Ray Charles would notice that did look right.
You're wrong, but whatever. "Painting 101" was written 50 years ago, and is sadly outdated.
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Old 05-27-2013, 10:58 PM   #18
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You're wrong, but whatever. "Painting 101" was written 50 years ago, and is sadly outdated.
You let me know when bare drywall needing more than one coat of paint becomes outdated. I have only seen what one coat of flat paint on bare drywall looks like about 50 times.
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Old 05-27-2013, 11:37 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Matthewt1970 View Post
You let me know when bare drywall needing more than one coat of paint becomes outdated. I have only seen what one coat of flat paint on bare drywall looks like about 50 times.
But it will never look like a nice satin finish over a decent drywall primer/sealer. Drywall tape and mud will flash right out of nice paint without a primer over new drywall. And I can spot a one coat flat over new drywall instantly.

Primer. Two coats of finish. Formula still works well.

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Old 05-28-2013, 06:40 AM   #20
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But it will never look like a nice satin finish over a decent drywall primer/sealer.
It's true. Satin paint just doesn't look like flat paint. Good catch.


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Primer. Two coats of finish. Formula still works well.
Of course it does. Just like copper pipe still carries water. But homeowners are way better off doing PEX themselves. Whether something "still works" is not the point. At all.
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Old 05-28-2013, 06:46 AM   #21
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You let me know when bare drywall needing more than one coat of paint becomes outdated.
I already did. Read the thickness TDSs from the manufacturers and figure it out. Obviously this still doesn't work with eggshell, and manufacturers still recommend 2 coats to cover their butts. But even the manufacturers themselves aren't recommending primer over new drywall anymore. Times change, I recommend you keep up.
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:19 AM   #22
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I already did. Read the thickness TDSs from the manufacturers and figure it out. Obviously this still doesn't work with eggshell, and manufacturers still recommend 2 coats to cover their butts. But even the manufacturers themselves aren't recommending primer over new drywall anymore. Times change, I recommend you keep up.
I recommend you quit making stuff up as you go.
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Old 05-28-2013, 08:34 AM   #23
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Ease off lads and share a pint or something. Jeff comes here looking for fights. Up to you whether you want to give him one. At which point the moderators step in.

And he is right in suggesting we need to change if better materials and practices come along. So far I am not convinced they have to the point one coat of paint film thickness will survive much.

Popcorn ceilings were the solution to not have to tape, prime and paint ceilings once and in fairness, even though the crappiest of material, they stuck up there for a couple of cycle of homeowners. And then they finally started peeling off because there was never any primer.

Prime the drywall and mud.
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Old 05-28-2013, 08:46 AM   #24
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Of course it does. Just like copper pipe still carries water. But homeowners are way better off doing PEX themselves. Whether something "still works" is not the point. At all.
Lamp cord for in wall wiring works for DIY homeowners too and at only $.29 a linear foot, what a bargain. Why in the world mess with romex, or still code here, conduit?

Thankfully, where I have lived recently, and here, electricians have to do or at least look over wiring. Plumbers same deal. And then their are inspectors who look over them. In theory of course and every once in awhile a family goes up in flames because they were into DIY when they should have realized some things are not.

Draconian? Perhaps. But DIYers, especially with minimum wage orange or blue apron people who have never worked in the trades counseling them? DIYers make some silly decisions---most often based on price point and not even common sense. Like thinking they can make Pex connections first time any more than they can learn to solder copper connections on the first try. Or knowing better at their core but buying no prep needed, one coat coverage, and paint and primer in one.

It looks a little blotchy. I did it myself and the brush from the bag of 50 I used so I didn't have to wash it out was my last one. I thought painting would be fun but just this one bedroom for the coming infant with retinas that cannot even perceive color yet wore me out. I am not going to put on another coat.
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Old 05-28-2013, 08:46 AM   #25
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So far I am not convinced they have to the point one coat of paint film thickness will survive much.
Before we can even have a discussion about that, we need to stop thinking in terms of "one coat" paint film thickness and start thinking in terms of "actual" paint film thickness. A "coat" is an outdated and nebulous term that really refers more to labor effort than actual results on the wall.

Film thickness should be discussed in thousandths of inches (mils). A thickness of "1 coat" means... well, nothing, really. Practically speaking, it means somewhere roughly in the neighborhood of .5 mils to 2.5 mils. In other words, a difference of 4 coats (1 coat or 5 coats) depending on the paint and who is doing the painting.

Someone who will agree that paint A, which specifies a film thickness of .9 mils, will cover in 2 coats, but refuses to admit that paint B, which specifies a film thickness of 2.0 mils, will not cover in 1 coat, is simply not making any sense. There is more to it than that, but that's a start. It's not magic, it's not rocket science, it's not advertising or hype - it's simple math and chemistry.
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:06 AM   #26
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Lamp cord for in wall wiring works for DIY homeowners too and at only $.29 a linear foot, what a bargain. Why in the world mess with romex, or still code here, conduit?
Because it doesn't meet code, and is often unsafe.

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Thankfully, where I have lived recently, and here, electricians have to do or at least look over wiring. Plumbers same deal. And then their are inspectors who look over them.

Draconian? Perhaps.
No, not at all. Just safe and common sense. (Not really sure what you're saying. PEX is perfectly safe and up to plumbing codes.)

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DIYers make some silly decisions---most often based on price point and not even common sense. Like thinking they can make Pex connections first time any more than they can learn to solder copper connections on the first try.
DIYers have a far - FAR - better chance of making a first time PEX connection than a first time copper sweat connection. (The first one I made was basically perfect.) The go-no-go PEX gauge is a big help there too. And if the connection doesn't work, fixing it is FAR easier in PEX. Virtually everything is FAR easier in PEX.

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Or knowing better at their core but buying no prep needed, one coat coverage, and paint and primer in one.
I have never heard of a "no prep" paint.

But some of the new paints are self-priming over new drywall, and warranted and recommended by the manufacturer. To tell someone not to take advantage of this when it will work well and is economically optimal is just plain irresponsible. Of course there are times when using primer will save money and/or time and/or improve the results.

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It looks a little blotchy. I did it myself and the brush from the bag of 50 I used so I didn't have to wash it out was my last one. I thought painting would be fun but just this one bedroom for the coming infant with retinas that cannot even perceive color yet wore me out. I am not going to put on another coat.
We're not here to advise that guy.

I think you're missing the point here. First, there are no codes regarding something like interior wall paint. It's aesthetic and practical only. Does it look good? Does it stay on the wall? Can it be cleaned or touched up? That's usually all you have to worry about. You don't have to worry about water damage or electrocution or utility bills. If you get the color you want, the sheen you want, the scrubbability you want, and ease of use you can live with, you're golden. You don't need permits, and there are no inspectors.

But if a guy wants to try for 1 coat, then he should try. If he doesn't like the look of it, then put on a second coat. Nothing is lost, and something can be gained. And there are many situations where 1 coat will be perfectly acceptable (and no, I don't mean blotchy for a guy who doesn't care.) Eggshell paint over bare drywall is not one of those times (at least not as of spring 2013, that I'm aware of). Flats over bare drywall, or repaints, in certain colors, with certain paints, are instances that might work.

Remember, it's more about film thickness than "coats". So when you read the above, think "there are situations where the mil thickness after 1 coat will be acceptable".

To tell DIYers "you must use a primer, and then you must use 2 coats of any paint you use" is dogmatic and unethical and irresponsible and ignorant.

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Old 05-28-2013, 09:58 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffnc

Before we can even have a discussion about that, we need to stop thinking in terms of "one coat" paint film thickness and start thinking in terms of "actual" paint film thickness. A "coat" is an outdated and nebulous term that really refers more to labor effort than actual results on the wall.

.
Jeff, you make some excellent points about film thickness,and I truly believe this is the crux of the issue. DFT (dry film thickness) is difficult to determine, especially for a DYI. It requires expensive, specialized tools and is simply not feasible for an average DYI ( or residential pro for that matter) to check.
However, I don't quite agree that the term ' coat' is outdated. Quite the opposite in fact. All modern latex paints ( all paints really, but to stick to talking about interior latex) have specifications for coating thickness. Most int. paints spec a WFT (wet film thickness) of 4 mil. Some higher quality paints (Ben Moore) spec WFT at 3.8mil.
Unlike Dry film thickness, wet film thickness is easy and simple to check. Although I have met or talked to very few pros outside of the industrial/commercial markets who check WFT regularly, or at all.
This is surprising to me, as film thickness (along with prep) is the #1 most important factor in coating performance.
Personally, I painted for 15years without ever even thinking or knowing to check thickness. And I was in agreement with most painters that "one coat coverage was a crock of chit. But as I started learning more and wondering why some paint was not performing as it should have I got into checking my WFT for different applications. The results were shocking to say the least. I found that on average, even when I thought I was getting a good coat on something, in realty I was only applying half a coat (2mil) or so.
Once I developed the techniques for applying at or close to 4mil, everything changed. I realized that generally one coat claims were valid if you could actually get a full coat on at one time.
I strongly encourage anyone who is serious about the painting trade to try this. It could change your outlook.
This also affects warranty issues, because naturally paint applied under the recommended thickness is not going to perform as designed.
Getting on a thick enough coat of paint is by no means a given, for pro or DIY. And there is no way to know unless you check. Luckily, checking thickness is easy.
I'm posting a pic of a WFT gauge, these can usually be obtained at SW for free.
Also some pics of an interior I did recently with one coat of a P&P product (not bher). Existing color was dark red, new color light tan. This product performed well, and lived up to the claims made in the specs when applied at 4mil.
The band at the top of the red room is where a wallpaper border was skimmed and primed (real primer for that)
This is just one example of what modern latex can do if applied properly.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:26 AM   #28
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Another way to look at one coat coverage claims is "the devil is in the details" because yes, one coat often will cover perfectly, and with true color ,and be touch up able. But the coat must be applied 4mil thick to achieve this. 4mil is a heck of a lot of paint to put on at one time. But if you can pull it off, the results are amazing.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:35 AM   #29
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Poor ShawnAndAngela. All they wanted was some advice, lol!

If this were me and my home where I was painting worn walls, I would prime. I just would. I'm admittedly overly anal about my home because, well, it's my home. It's not a house. Anyway, priming would prevent flashing on repairs and I'd give myself a little extra reassurance overall. Assuming I wouldn't know exactly what the story of the walls were from drywall to what I see now, the priming step would fill in the blank of the unknown.

For a customer, I'd make a recommendation depending on what I can see and observe in the space, like the specific colors I'll be working with, extent of repairs, etc. Painting a butter yellow over a navy blue? I'm priming it. The wall looks like a dalmation after all repairs have been made? Primer. Like has already been said, primers serve a purpose to solve specific problems as long as the problem isn't lack of prep. If you've spent more time applying paint than you did preparing to apply it, you've done it wrong.

No way would I ever choose one coat of paint. Wet mil thickness is definitely important, and it's something I'm paying more attention to, but 2 properly applied coats is my preference. Angela, I assume you're a female. Hell, maybe Shawn is too. ;-) Ever get a one coat manicure to last? My fingernails get primer, 3 coats of color, and a top coat and I do this every week or 10 days. Be kind to your home; its manicure needs to last a heck of a lot longer than a week or two. ;-)
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Old 05-28-2013, 02:15 PM   #30
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i made dark hunter green into light sky blue by using Better Homes and Gardens paint, and Kilz2 Mold-and-Mildew Resistant Primer. The primer covered it real well, and the paint went on without an issue

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