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ShawnandAngela 05-25-2013 12:56 AM

Brand New Member...Need Advice On Painting Over Dark Colors
 
I found this forum trying to do an internet search for advice....I thought I might be able to ask our specific questions here and hopefully get some good advice from people with experience. Hope I'm right. :) Forgive me if I'm going about this wrong.

We just bought a house and the previous owners used what looks to be dark semi-gloss or possibly eggshell paint on the walls. We have done drywall repairs, scraping, and sanding so far. We purchased Glidden DUO for two rooms and Kilz ProX 330 (we think...it's sitting at the new house and we can't remember for sure) for another room. We are wondering if the paint we purchased will cover okay by itself since it's primer and paint or if we should paint first with Sherwin Williams commercial flat paint or eggshell paint (this is what we have to work with) first for better results.

REALLY appreciate any advice! Thanks in advance!!:)

Matthewt1970 05-25-2013 01:16 AM

Just paint away. The "primer and paint in one" is a marketing gimic. If it were actually true, the primer actually would make it worse at covering the old colors.

Jmayspaint 05-25-2013 08:16 AM

Some general advice is that flats will usually cover better than enamels, sometimes even If you want a sheen, you can save a coat by painting it first with flat.

Something else that will help you cover enamel walls is to sand them. Dulling the gloss will make it easier to get a good thick coat on.

ToolSeeker 05-25-2013 10:50 AM

Just me but I would prime your drywall repairs with real primer first.

user1007 05-25-2013 10:58 AM

You bought low level paint. Beyond that, it may work out if you get a decent "real" primer to go under it all. Paint and primer in one is a dangerous marketing gimmick.

Get some Zinsser 123 for a primer coat. You could tint it 50 percent of the color you chose if you want. A box store minimum wage paint person will not even know what you are asking but your real paint store will.

Prime the dark walls. Have it at with the new color you like.

You did buy nice real 2.5 inch sash brushes you will wash out and take care of and not the $10 bagobrushes special right?

7.62 05-25-2013 11:51 AM

In my limited experience painting over dark colors, I didn't find a primer coat to be necessary. Our hallway was as VERY dark olive green. We changed color to a very light blue-grey using SW Duration. Two coats and the walls were the same color as the chip. I was going to prime first, but when I put the sample color on the wall first, it covered the dark olive so well I decided to skip the primer.

Just my very LIMITED experience.

Brushjockey 05-25-2013 12:29 PM

Primers are not made for coverage, paint is. If all you're doing is changing a color- use a paint. 2 coats.
If there is a "problem", like uneven porosity- a PnP might work, but then it is acting like a tinted primer for the first coat. Spot prime with the PnP unless it is extensive, then a real primer might be better.
But to change colors- paint.

ToolSeeker 05-25-2013 01:03 PM

Your not worried about the drywall repairs flashing?

Brushjockey 05-25-2013 01:31 PM

If that was at me- please reread my post..

jeffnc 05-25-2013 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sdsester (Post 1187216)
Paint and primer in one is a dangerous marketing gimmick.

Oh for crying out loud - drama alert.

What is the sheen of the new paint you're putting on? If you've done drywall repairs and you're putting eggshell on, you'll need 2 coats of Duo, or 1 coat spot priming of the patched areas and at least 1 coat of any paint. Lesser quality paints will take at least 2 coats, and top quality paints might go on in 1.

jsheridan 05-26-2013 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffnc (Post 1187552)
Oh for crying out loud - drama alert.

What is the sheen of the new paint you're putting on? If you've done drywall repairs and you're putting eggshell on, you'll need 2 coats of Duo, or 1 coat spot priming of the patched areas and at least 1 coat of any paint. Lesser quality paints will take at least 2 coats, and top quality paints might go on in 1.

No might. I give somewhat on paint and primer in one. But I don't give in the least on one coat coverage, regardless of the "quality" of the paint. The "self priming" characteristic of paint means it seals the old surface on the first coat, and establishes the color base, but it doesn't fully develop color or sheen on the first coat. The color difference between the first and second coat is sometimes extreme, but at least always subtle, as the color under the first coat still influences your perception of the first coat's color. As well, a flat over a sheen will be less true of a flat on the first coat, and vice versa. The second coat is where the sheen and color are fully developed.

I illustrated this to a guy who worked with me using Aura Matte over flat, dark brown over tan. Even when using that quality of a paint the difference between the first and second coat was remarkable. He was pretty amazed, even though the average person would have thought the coverage and color/sheen were fine, though way underdeveloped as shown by the test.

I also did some tests years ago where I primed a one foot by four foot strip of sheetrock in sixteen inch sections of white, gray, and black basecoats. I then rolled five coats of SW Roasted Tomato (or Pepper, not sure now) over the whole surface, until I had solid color over the white section. The brightness of the final color diminished as it went over the white, to the gray, and finally to the black, where there was a significant difference versus the white. It was clearly three different tones, and it illustrated for me the difference between a tint and a shade. So, under five coats of paint, the base coat was still influencing the color of the final coat of red. There were very slight sheen differences as well because the bases were not all the same product. I did this little test because I had a white ceiling to paint with the color and wanted to know why black couldn't be used instead of gray primer. I learned why. I ended up doing four or five coats over the white because that gave me the brightest result and most closely matched the chip. Light doesn't bounce off the paint, it bounces, what does bounce, off the substrate. For the same reason that a room painted solidly in one color will have a subtle difference between the trim and the walls, something I realized painting apartments solidly flat. If you want to get technical.

jeffnc 05-26-2013 11:03 AM

Well that all sounds very plausible.

But let's consider a couple things. For one thing, flat over flat doesn't have to "develop" a sheen.

But more importantly, we're talking about 1 coat vs. 2 coats. But think about it - that's a very coarse measurement. What really matter is the actual dry film thickness. That will vary depending on your roller, your technique, how thick you put it on, and especially the actual paint (among other things.)

To get the optimal results you're talking about, it takes a certain film thickness. If you achieve that, it doesn't matter much how many coats that takes. We don't know what the thickness is to achieve the result you want, but let's just say it's 1.7 mils. Or 2.4 mils. It doesn't matter. The point is, to achieve that result. So obviously some paints will require 3 coats to achieve up to 2.4 mils. And some paints will require 1 coat to achieve 1.7 mils. You can also apply thicker or thinner. I've seen 1 manufacturer actually specify in the TDS 2.6 mils at 250 sf. Other paints will go on that thick even if the manufacturer doesn't specify it. So obviously those are 1 coat paints, in terms of film thickness at that coverage.

This is basically impossible to figure out exactly in practice. The easiest thing for a homeowner to do it put on 1 coat of a good paint. If they're satisfied with the result, stop. If they're not satisfied, continue. You don't have to plan out 2 coats in advance, and there's no reason to tell them they have to.

I do this all the time on my own projects. On a recent house I flipped, I put 1 coat of flat SuperPaint (Relaxed Khaki at 75% tint) on bare drywall. I was planning on 2 coats, but it looked so good after 1, I just stopped. You can't predict which combination of surface, color, paint formula and lighting will give you the result you want.

In my own home, I repainted my office with matte Aura. It didn't look good enough after 1 coat, so I had to put on 2. I was hoping for 1, but didn't get it, so had to go get another gallon.

Go figure. If anything, you'd expect the opposite with those 2 scenarios.

So even if you are right - that color and sheen always change significantly between the 2st and 2nd coat (which I don't agree with) - it doesn't matter. If they like it fine after 1 coat, there isn't much reason to continue. Even if there is a difference with 1 more coat, they might actually prefer it that way. Or the difference is so subtle it's not worth it to them to spend the extra hours and dollars.

jeffnc 05-26-2013 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jsheridan (Post 1187704)
I also did some tests years ago where I primed a one foot by four foot strip of sheetrock in sixteen inch sections of white, gray, and black basecoats. I then rolled five coats of SW Roasted Tomato (or Pepper, not sure now) over the whole surface, until I had solid color over the white section. The brightness of the final color diminished as it went over the white, to the gray, and finally to the black, where there was a significant difference versus the white.

I assume this was Roasted Pepper, which isn't on my current SW palette [edit: I think this is because it's actually a Duron color]

But anyway this is a pretty well known issue, which is why SW specifies a particular shade of gray primer under colors like these. As someone here likes to say, primers exist to solve problems, and getting the correct color can be a problem. Therefore, some primers are color primers. SW has a Color Prime system: " Just check the back of your Sherwin-Williams color chip. If a gray-shade primer is recommended, it will be coded – P1 for the lightest gray, through P6 for the darkest – to tell you which shade of gray your primer should be tinted."

The correct shade of gray for colors like Roasted Pepper is always going to be about P1 or P2 - maybe between the white and gray in your experiment.

Of course you would never try to tell anyone they can put on 1 coat of bright red paint of any brand. However, if they put on the correct shade of primer and liked the result after only 1 coat of finish coat, more power to them. I'd be a little surprised though. You probably refer to those reds and yellows the same way I do - as "clear" colors.

Matthewt1970 05-27-2013 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeffnc (Post 1187552)
Oh for crying out loud - drama alert.

What is the sheen of the new paint you're putting on? If you've done drywall repairs and you're putting eggshell on, you'll need 2 coats of Duo, or 1 coat spot priming of the patched areas and at least 1 coat of any paint. Lesser quality paints will take at least 2 coats, and top quality paints might go on in 1.

After reading the above and this from you in that other thread it seems you like to argue against the teachings in Painting 101.

"I put 2 coats over bare drywall. (Note: Behr advertises PPU as "paint and primer in one", in other words self-priming over bare drywall.) Color-wise, it covered fine in 1 coat. It was only the flashing over joint compound that kept it from 1 coat. In other words, a flat could have covered in 1 coat. "

You are never, and let me emphasize never going to get one coat coverage on new drywall. Even Ray Charles would notice that did look right.

user1007 05-27-2013 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthewt1970 (Post 1188672)
You are never, and let me emphasize never going to get one coat coverage on new drywall. Even Ray Charles would notice that did look right.

But would Stevie Wonder think it ok? WTH? We are now dragging blind people up to judge paint finishes?

My neighbor Ken is blind more than a bat. He thinks the new colors applied to my place are a perfect choice. He can tell I like them.

He says I should get more serious about color consulting and drag his sorry ass along on consults. I would but the dude is not only blind but butt ugly. And he is kind of short and fat. And the cane thing turns some people off.

How would it look if I showed up with him?

I could, for a few bucks, train him to run his hands over walls and spot sheens!


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