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Old 02-18-2014, 12:03 PM   #1
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Benjamin Moore Advance Screwup


I'm a hobbyist cabinet maker who has done a lot of spraying and, against my better judgment, I decided to roll/brush some interior trim work. The trim is a simple shaker-style wainscoting, 5' high and made of MDF (filled, sanded, caulked, primed). My local BM dealer sold me on using Advance claiming it will level fine after rolling. I found that it dried quicker than I was expecting and while, I was able to catch the frequent runs, it really just didn't brush very well. Rolling was quick, but I ended up with stippling that now looks more like orange peel. I also made the mistake of trying to cut in ever panel and then rolling which has resulted in a lot of flashing where my brush-work didn't blend.

The big question is what are my best options at this point for fixing this? It's only about 12 hours old and I can already hear my orbital sander calling to me from the garage. I assume I should wait a few days for the paint to cure.

I've only done one coat with the Advance at the moment, but I won't be trying to brush it on vertical panels again.
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Old 02-18-2014, 07:43 PM   #2
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Benjamin Moore Advance Screwup


What I use is Advance to spray, Pro classic to brush. Let me ask a couple questions. Did you add anything to the paint, Such as Flotrol or xim extender? The main complaint I have heard about Advance is it's too slow drying, and it's thin and you really need to watch for runs and sags. But too be honest pro classic also has some quirks.
Any way it's already done so to fix it, before it cures I might look into a mild stripper. While the paint is soft it may come off pretty easy and save you a ton of sanding. You may want to talk to your BM people and see what they have to say.
Keep us posted and let us know what you find out.

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Old 02-19-2014, 11:44 AM   #3
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Benjamin Moore Advance Screwup


I didn't add anything as the BM rep discouraged it. Working on one panel, I knocked a lot of the orange peel down with a sanding block yesterday so I think my orbital sander will have little trouble flattening it prior to spraying. I'm better setup for sanding than for stripping so I think I will go that route. If I can't get it to knock down, I'll use a high build primer.

I caught most of the runs while painting and the paint leveled okay on the areas where I brushed and kept a wet edge. It is really just the panels that have an orange peel texture from rolling and flashing from the mix. Unfortunately, I have side lighting, both from an overhead pot light and a window in the door so there is really no hiding the peel or the flashing. My wife doesn't think it looks that bad but (to me) it ranks as the worst paint job I've done in a long, long time. I'm glad this is my own home and not a client project!

Do you use any additives when spraying? BM advised to thin with water only. I'll be using my HVLP setup and either a 1.5 or 2.0 tip. I will likely build a few coats over the day to try and avoid sags. I'm keen to hear any insight you have based on your experience.
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Old 02-19-2014, 02:36 PM   #4
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Benjamin Moore Advance Screwup


Ill have to keep an eye on these responses. Looking at painting stained cabinets with advanced. Planning on spraying doors and fronts and rolling the frames. Look forward to hear how difficult it is to spray advanced, whether or not it should be painted horizontally or if it's ok to paint them hanging vertical so that both sides can get coated at a time, etc. The advice I've been getting at paint shops around here is all over the board...from don't use advance to use it, to roll it to spray it, and so on, but none of the guys in the stores seem to have any real paint experience.
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Old 02-19-2014, 04:39 PM   #5
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Benjamin Moore Advance Screwup


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Originally Posted by t1snwbrdr12 View Post
Ill have to keep an eye on these responses. Looking at painting stained cabinets with advanced. Planning on spraying doors and fronts and rolling the frames. Look forward to hear how difficult it is to spray advanced, whether or not it should be painted horizontally or if it's ok to paint them hanging vertical so that both sides can get coated at a time, etc. The advice I've been getting at paint shops around here is all over the board...from don't use advance to use it, to roll it to spray it, and so on, but none of the guys in the stores seem to have any real paint experience.

I hope you are going to prime then first
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Old 02-19-2014, 06:47 PM   #6
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Benjamin Moore Advance Screwup


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I hope you are going to prime then first
Yep. Stix was recommended and it's come up a few times in my online researching.
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Old 02-19-2014, 06:57 PM   #7
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Benjamin Moore Advance Screwup


First I will tell my experience with HVLP Mine is a cheap one I got it thinking it would be good for trim and doors, it came with the little cup you had to fill and then time to see how long it took for the cup to empty. Then you had to thin it till it got to the point where the cup would empty in the right amount of time. I was spraying Pro Classic and the doors came out horrible. I mean they looked like crap.
Talked to my SW rep and found out that the pro classic has levelers in it so when it dries it levels out brush marks and the like. When I thinned the paint so much so I could shoot it I affected the levelers. Then the warm air from the turbine dried the paint much too quick and it came out looking streaked. I found out to spray this paint un-thinned it would take a 4 stage HVLP about $2000.
I went back to my airless and have not had any more trouble.
When I have sprayed Advance it has been with my airless using a Fine Finish tip. And the only additive I have used is just a little water.
Sorry for the long post hope you find something in it useful.
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Old 02-19-2014, 07:19 PM   #8
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Benjamin Moore Advance Screwup


I was nervous the first time I sprayed Advance. The salesman had stressed the materials tendency to run. Once I started doing it though, it wasn't that different than other enamels. I haven't sprayed it HVLP, I use an airless with .13 orifice size tips.

Advance, and other self leveling paints tend to run because of there leveling properties. In order for a paint to 'level' (not show applicator marks as bad) it has to move some after application.
Ideally the wet paint film all moves, or 'flows', together at the same rate creating a smoother dried film.

The catch is that these paints are less tolerant to uneven application. During the 'flow out' phase of drying, if the paint film is uneven (has thicker spots next to thinner spots), as the paint flows out the thicker spots will 'run' over the thinner spots.

That's why 'cut in and roll' applications like in the OP, don't have a good chance of success because of the overlap created, and the difference of thickness between brush and roller application.

Perhaps a better method for hand application would be to roll the whole thing and back brush, paying attention to the places where paint tends to build up like the inside corners. With the goal of eliminating thick spots and applying the most consistent coat possible.

Spraying gives you a better chance of achieving a consistent coat, but its still possible to get inconsistencies that will cause runs. Horizontal spraying will give the best chance for optimal results because of gravity.

Applying a thiner coat in an attempt to prevent runs is counter productive because a thinner coat will not have enough drying time to be able to level to its fullest potential. And runs will still happen because of the unevenness of the wet coat.

Just some of my impressions from using Advance and similar coatings.

Also, I wouldn't recommend rushing the re coat time with Advance. It has a longer than normal re coat time, and not waiting the full period seems to affect curing time, as well as the final hardness of the coating.
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Old 02-19-2014, 07:48 PM   #9
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Benjamin Moore Advance Screwup


I have a 4 stage HVLP so thinning should be minimal. I have an inexpensive airless sprayer, but I have only used it on outdoor projects. I'd be very worried about overspray using it indoors... did I mention it is cheap? Not that I won't be putting down a good amount of paper and drop-sheets with the HVLP, but I'm pretty comfortable with my spraying setup.

I'm going to setup some scrap trim and drywall in my basement and do a little practicing with my sprayer one night this week. I may rethink my many light coats approach best on my test pieces... The product guide specifically states a 16hr re-coat time and you have to think there's a reason for it.

Prior to doing this project I laid out some Advance with a brush on some standard size trim pieces, both laying flat and vertical. The finish on these looks quite adequate, with minimal brush strokes after 1 coat. Rolling it into these larger panels with a 4" roller proved to be the problem. I immediately noticed stippling when I rolled it and gravity pulled the paint down as it dried. At the time, I didn't think of back brushing. I did back-roll one or two panels and these are among the worst looking.

I'd be interested in hearing from a pro about how they would paint trim like this.

Many thanks for the responses so far.
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Old 02-20-2014, 02:19 AM   #10
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Benjamin Moore Advance Screwup


Quote:
Originally Posted by gwil View Post
I have a 4 stage HVLP so thinning should be minimal. I have an inexpensive airless sprayer, but I have only used it on outdoor projects. I'd be very worried about overspray using it indoors... did I mention it is cheap? Not that I won't be putting down a good amount of paper and drop-sheets with the HVLP, but I'm pretty comfortable with my spraying setup.

I'm going to setup some scrap trim and drywall in my basement and do a little practicing with my sprayer one night this week. I may rethink my many light coats approach best on my test pieces... The product guide specifically states a 16hr re-coat time and you have to think there's a reason for it.

Prior to doing this project I laid out some Advance with a brush on some standard size trim pieces, both laying flat and vertical. The finish on these looks quite adequate, with minimal brush strokes after 1 coat. Rolling it into these larger panels with a 4" roller proved to be the problem. I immediately noticed stippling when I rolled it and gravity pulled the paint down as it dried. At the time, I didn't think of back brushing. I did back-roll one or two panels and these are among the worst looking.

I'd be interested in hearing from a pro about how they would paint trim like this.

Many thanks for the responses so far.

Jmayspaint pretty much covered it
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Old 02-20-2014, 05:22 AM   #11
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Benjamin Moore Advance Screwup


A 4 stage really should do the job. As stated my HVLP experience is very limited. When I use airless for something like this I use a fine finish tip. From the pic probably a 410ff. This really cuts down on overspray. It atomizes (probably not the right word) the paint so fine it's almost like drywall on the overspray. Since you have an airless I wish you had one of these tips, remember not just a 410 but a 410 ff. I think it would be interesting to compare the 2 finishes when you practice.
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Old 08-13-2015, 09:54 AM   #12
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Benjamin Moore Advance Screwup


I'm just finishing spraying my cabinets white - total reface from oak.

We used the BM Advance Satin 3.5 gallons and BM Advance Primer 2.5 gallons. The finish paint was $50/gallon and I think the primer may have been $48/gallon. The color we chose was Cloud White and we love it. They have to jimmy rig the Advance Primer to tint it, but it's possible. I sprayed everything in the garage in an enclosed plastic area. I would highly recommend a lazy suzan type turntable to spray all your pieces on. It eliminates so much risk of spraying multiples at once. I only saw one available at walmart and it turned out working amazing. It was a two stand with 3 wooden dowels. So on the large stuff I set them on the 3 dowels. For the smaller stuff I popped the top of the turntable on that had three golf tees glued to it. I bought the Graco Magnum LTS15 for $270 at Lowes with a 10% off coupon. Got some experience ahead of time by painting the exterior of the house. Used a Graco RAC X Fine Finish Tip 214.

Finishing our large kitchen in two weeks. First week lowers, then this week uppers. It will be about 100 accumulative hours spent. I paid friends to help me sand on the Saturdays and help brush/roll paint the inside. Our first day spraying was 99F. The max temp for application is 90F with a recommended 77F. I was fanning the AC into the garage as much as possible. One of the boards had a bad cracking effect and eventually had to use stripper and start over on that one. A few of the others had minimal cracking that we got cleared up with sanding and the additional coats. The cracking was noticed mid day and half way through spraying primer. I lowered my sprayer pressure down from the recommended 75% pressure to between 45-55% and intentionally sprayed less and never saw the problem again. I had all the cabinets drying in the garage. Used 2x4s across saw horses, etc. I hot glued golf tees to the boards and set the boards on those. Be mindful not to flip them after the dry to touch time or you'll get dimples. Wait at a very minimum the recoat time. Make sure to use two finishing coats. The inside required three finishing coats. I cleaned them all with TSP and Klean Strip Sander Deglosser. Also used an orbital sander of 120 grit before primer and then 220 grit after primer. Then a fine sanding block between coats. We also used an Elmers sandable wood filler to fill screw holes. You can see a handful of divets from over sanding. In a perfect world we would have spent more time redoing some things, but who wants to have their kitchen tied up for a minimum of two weeks. Overall we are very pleased with the BM Advance.

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