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Old 12-31-2013, 03:33 AM   #61
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Am I being OCD/too demanding, or is the painter lazy?


There's a big difference between Angie's List and Consumer Reports. Angie's List reviews are written by a huge community of actual customers. Consumer Reports are written by some little group of guys in a lab who might or might not understand the best criteria by which to judge. Not to mention the fact that they don't rate painters.

Getting recommendations from a paint store might work great, but personally I'd be suspicious that they simply recommend their biggest paint buyers. Judging by the paint job in my local Sherwin Williams store, I'm not sure I'd want them recommending anyone to me.

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Old 12-31-2013, 05:29 AM   #62
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Am I being OCD/too demanding, or is the painter lazy?


Recommendations from friends, family, neighbors are the best way, as I said before.
So is asking the manager of your local Sherwin Williams or Benjamin Moore store.
And even though I take advantage of free advertising on Craigs List myself, I would not recommend you do so. It is loaded with flunkies and con-artists.

If you don't have friends or family in your area, try calling here to get started. They will not be specific but will point you in the right direction for getting help finding a quality contractor in your area:

Painting and Decorating Contractors of
America
1801 Park 270 Drive, Suite 220
St. Louis, MO 63146
Telephone: (314) 514-7322
www.pdca.com

Good luck Sloan

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Old 12-31-2013, 05:45 AM   #63
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Am I being OCD/too demanding, or is the painter lazy?


Sloan, here are some points to mull over in your mind before you do your final walkthrough.
This is the basis for acceptable quality work regarding Touch Up Painting and Damage Repair throughout the nation .

Touch Up Painting and Damage Repair: Financial Responsibility and Definition of a Properly Painted Surface
Scope
1.1. The purpose of this standard is to establish the financial responsibilities for repair or correction of damage to finished painted surfaces.
1.2. It is the intent of this document to define “Touch up.”
1.3. A “properly painted surface” is also defined in this standard.
2. Significance and Use
2.1. This standard defines the repair and repainting of finished painted surfaces that have been damaged by individuals other than those employed by the painting and decorating contractor. This type of damage is defined as “damage caused by others.” Damage caused by others will be corrected by the painting and decorating contractor after a contract, legal and binding, is received from the contracting entity.
The painting and decorating contractor will repair and/or repaint the damaged area after receiving acceptance of its proposal and authorization to proceed on either a lump sum or time and material basis.
“Latent damage” is due to conditions beyond the control of the painting and decorating contractor. This damage is caused by conditions not apparent at the time of initial painting and decorating.
The painting and decorating contractor will repair and/or repaint the damaged area after receiving acceptance of its proposal and authorization to proceed on either a lump sum or time and material basis.
2.2. The contractual work is job and item specific. In no case shall the painting and decorating contractor be responsible for “damage caused by others” or “latent damage” as herein described.
2.3. The painting and decorating contractor will produce a “properly painted surface.” A “properly painted surface” is defined as uniform in appearance, color, texture, hiding and sheen. It is also free of foreign material, lumps, skins, runs, sags, holidays, misses, or insufficient coverage. It is also a surface free of drips, spatters, spills or overspray caused by the painting and decorating contractor’s workforce. In order to determine whether a surface has been “properly painted” it shall be examined without magnification at a distance of thirty-nine (39) inches or one (1) meter, or more, under finished lighting conditions and from a normal viewing position.
3. Reference Documents and Standards
3.1. ASTM, Volume 6.01, of ASTM standard, D16-00 (published September 2000).
3.2. SSPC, SSPC Painting Manual Vol. 2, Eighth edition 2000, Standard SSPC-PA 1, 9.0 Field Coating, 9.3 Touch Up of Shop Coated Surfaces.
3.3. Painting and Decorating Encyclopedia, William Brushwell, Published by Goodheart-Wilcox, Touch up.
3.4. PDCA Painting and Decorating Craftsman’s Manual and Textbook, 1995, 8th edition. Touch up.
3.5. MPI, The Master Painters Glossary – Painting and Decorating Terminology, 1997& 2004.
3.6. AIA Document A 201 General Conditions of the Contract for Construction 1997.
3.7. AIA Document A 401 Standard Form of Agreement Between Contractor and Subcontractor 1997.
3.8. PDCA Standard P9-04, Definition of Trade Terms.
3.9. FSCT, Coating Encyclopedic Dictionary, Edited by Stanley LeSota, 1995.
3.10. Black’s Law Dictionary, 7th Edition, Bryan A. Garner, 1999
3.11. SSPC, Protective Coatings Glossary.
3.12. Webster’s New World Collegiate Dictionary, 4th Edition, 2002.
3.13. If there is a conflict between any of the references and this standard, then the requirements of this standard shall prevail.
4. Definitions
4.1. CHANGE ORDER: An agreement to modify or alter the original contract work. This includes but is not limited to, corrective work for “damage caused by others” and “latent damage.” Adjustments to the contract amount and completion time should be part of this agreement. The change order will be issued

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Old 12-31-2013, 07:28 AM   #64
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Am I being OCD/too demanding, or is the painter lazy?


I have never been on Angies list and I never will go there. I feel it serves one purpose and that is to make Angie Hicks rich.
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Old 12-31-2013, 08:07 AM   #65
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Am I being OCD/too demanding, or is the painter lazy?


Finding a good anything is hard. From doctor to mechanic to painter or any other kind of pro. That is in no way a slight to the many good ones out there. Its just how it is when you're looking for one. The good ones aren't trying to sell themselves because they don't need to. This makes them a lot harder to find when you have to battle through an army of hacks to unearth them.
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Old 12-31-2013, 10:47 AM   #66
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Finding a good anything is hard. From doctor to mechanic to painter or any other kind of pro. That is in no way a slight to the many good ones out there. Its just how it is when you're looking for one. The good ones aren't trying to sell themselves because they don't need to. This makes them a lot harder to find when you have to battle through an army of hacks to unearth them.
How things have changed over the years. You are right, it's hard to even find a good doctor nowadays. Thankfully I found a great one many years ago and I stick with him. And mechanics... 'oh boy, I can tell you stories.
As you say, the good ones in most anything don't have to sell themselves and they stay busy.
Funny thing, I started advertising years ago on Craigslist along with various trade magazines and local newspapers.
I don't even bother with anything now except references and Craigslist and CL only because I have pulled quite a few jobs from there in the past and it has become a habit I find hard to break. Plus, I love to go on there anyways looking for antique woodworking tools, certain collectables and real wooden antique furniture as I collect things like that. As long as I'm on there it only takes a second to pop an ad on there. It can be interesting.
Have a great day.

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Old 12-31-2013, 10:50 AM   #67
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Am I being OCD/too demanding, or is the painter lazy?


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I have never been on Angies list and I never will go there. I feel it serves one purpose and that is to make Angie Hicks rich.
I have a lot of customers who shopped Angies and weren't happy. They said the same thing you said...
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:18 PM   #68
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Am I being OCD/too demanding, or is the painter lazy?


Jacko, those standards are confusing. It says they won't be held responsible for damage by others or latent damage, but they will produce a properly painted surface as defined by being uniform in appearance, color, texture, hiding and sheen. What if it's impossible to create such a surface due to "damage caused by others" (i.e. previous bad paint jobs)?

It also says they won't be held responsible for damage caused by others but then says that damage caused by others will be corrected after a contract is signed.

The walk through did not go well to put it mildly. F-bombs were yelled (by the painter, not us); lawsuits were threatened (by the painter, not us); things were thrown (by the painter, not us). Soooo yes, it is hard to find decent professionals.

On the bright side, I really like the colors I chose, even if the details are a mess.
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:29 PM   #69
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Am I being OCD/too demanding, or is the painter lazy?


Forget all that nonsense. If someone is bad, they're going to be bad regardless of a contract. If someone is good, they're going to be good regardless of a contract. Obviously contracts are useful, mostly for just documenting what was agreed on to be done for future reference, and also in case something catastrophic happens, you at least have something signed that shows small claims court you actually had a formal agreement to do something. But it won't really save you. I've won small claims cases before and still didn't get paid. Bottom line, finding good people trumps good contracts.
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:55 PM   #70
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Am I being OCD/too demanding, or is the painter lazy?


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Jacko, those standards are confusing. It says they won't be held responsible for damage by others or latent damage, but they will produce a properly painted surface as defined by being uniform in appearance, color, texture, hiding and sheen. What if it's impossible to create such a surface due to "damage caused by others" (i.e. previous bad paint jobs)?

It also says they won't be held responsible for damage caused by others but then says that damage caused by others will be corrected after a contract is signed.

The walk through did not go well to put it mildly. F-bombs were yelled (by the painter, not us); lawsuits were threatened (by the painter, not us); things were thrown (by the painter, not us). Soooo yes, it is hard to find decent professionals.

On the bright side, I really like the colors I chose, even if the details are a mess.
Well, the when it says "they won't be held responsible for damage by others or latent damage" it means exactly that. The only way around that clause is to be specific in the contract, it should state that those particular issues will be addressed and corrected. This would ONLY APPLY IF it is agreed upon and written into the contract.
When it says "they won't be held responsible for damage caused by others but then says that damage caused by others will be corrected after a contract is signed." The painting and decorating contractor will repair and/or repaint the damaged area after receiving acceptance of its proposal and authorization to proceed on either a lump sum or time and material basis. It simply means money. It means you sign a contract stating it will be corrected, but you will have to pay extra for the corrections to apply. Again, this would only apply IF it is agreed upon and written into the contract.
And yes, it may sound confusing. But in reality, there isn't much one gets for free, is there? Exclusive contracts like this are extremely important in some situations, especially commercial and industrial work especially. I have some jobs that are well into the five figure range and every "i" must be dotted and every "t" must be crossed.

I can't speak for others, but when I create a proposal and then a quote, I make sure I point out every minor and major detail to my customers right up front. And I take pictures, lots of them, before and after. I don't want a customer unhappy after the fact and I make sure we are in agreement. For instance, I make sure the customer knows and understands that if there are issues such as old chipped paint areas, they will certainly show up after painting unless corrected properly. Proper correction cost money, additional money. I also make it a point to keep the customer involved throughout the job process. That to me is a very important part of the process.
Once in a while a hidden issue will pop up along the way on certain jobs, requiring unexpected work, a change order and of course, additional monies.
Believe it or not, this can be a burden more to a business than the customer.

It am so sorry to hear the final walkthrough didn't go well for you and he showed his ignorant side.
But remember, you have the money in your pocket, he doesn't.
That goes a long way and he will likely try to come to an agreement with you after he gives it some thought.
Personally, at this point, after he showed you his ignorance using the f- bomb, etc., I would look for someone else.
Keep us informed.

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Old 12-31-2013, 04:00 PM   #71
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It's just painting. Surely it couldn't have been that bad.
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Old 12-31-2013, 05:01 PM   #72
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Am I being OCD/too demanding, or is the painter lazy?


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There's a big difference between Angie's List and Consumer Reports. Angie's List reviews are written by a huge community of actual customers. Consumer Reports are written by some little group of guys in a lab who might or might not understand the best criteria by which to judge. Not to mention the fact that they don't rate painters.

Getting recommendations from a paint store might work great, but personally I'd be suspicious that they simply recommend their biggest paint buyers. Judging by the paint job in my local Sherwin Williams store, I'm not sure I'd want them recommending anyone to me.

Sure, but all you have to do to get ranked high on AL is to get someone to give you a good recommendation and then pay them ( AL). $$ talks, not the quality of the painter( or whom ever)
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Old 12-31-2013, 05:01 PM   #73
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I have never been on Angies list and I never will go there. I feel it serves one purpose and that is to make Angie Hicks rich.

you got it
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Old 12-31-2013, 05:35 PM   #74
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Forget all that nonsense. If someone is bad, they're going to be bad regardless of a contract. If someone is good, they're going to be good regardless of a contract. Obviously contracts are useful, mostly for just documenting what was agreed on to be done for future reference, and also in case something catastrophic happens, you at least have something signed that shows small claims court you actually had a formal agreement to do something. But it won't really save you. I've won small claims cases before and still didn't get paid. Bottom line, finding good people trumps good contracts.
Court? Hey, how did it go being in a courtroom? Just wondering as I have never had any need to go to court with any customer. Why did you have to go to court? Things couldn't have been worked out between you and your customers without such drastic action?
Thankfully all I know about a courtroom is watching television once in a blue moon.

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Old 12-31-2013, 06:17 PM   #75
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Court? Come on, really...court? Hey, how did it go being in a courtroom?
What are you talking about? Contracts are often used when lawsuits and court cases are involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JackoD View Post
Were you nervous?
No.

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Originally Posted by JackoD View Post
Were you worried?
No.

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Originally Posted by JackoD View Post
Why did you have to go to court?
In on case a company I hired to put in new windows in my house put in cracked and internally dirty double pane windows, and I had to get my money back. In another case an HVAC company charged me $4,000 for a new air handler when all I needed as a new $25 thermostat.

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Things couldn't have been worked out between you and your customers (sounds like more than once, 'eh) without such drastic action?
What are you talking about?

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Glad it worked out for you, carry on my friend.
As I already said, it didn't work out. The judge decided in my favor, due the contract and the results. However, due to the legal system, they couldn't collect money from either party. I did get my money back for the HVAC because I paid with credit card, so I declined the charge and let my credit card company deal with it.

Bottom line: as I already said, contracts can't necessarily save you if the contractor is bad. And if he's good, you don't need one.

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