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Old 08-30-2013, 11:54 AM   #46
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Vaccinations- Why Not You Too?


No where in the Constitution are stop signs mentioned, either. That doesn't mean they are unconstitutional.

Traffic laws, like vaccination statutes, are there to protect all. When a person isn't vaccinated It can affect a bunch of other people...just like running a stop sign.

My experience is that many who scream the loudest about their freedom also expect others to pick up the tab when something goes awry, or they say, "I have insurance," never considering that their behavior raises rates for everyone else.

Now I'm as politically conservation as anyone. But just as there as individual rights ... there are individual responsibilities.

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Old 08-30-2013, 11:57 AM   #47
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I need to step back too. I'm sure just mentioning the 'r' word is going to get me banned and the thread shut down anyway.
I doubt that it will be the r word that gets this shut down. More likely it would be the sanctimonious (and unproductive) belief that one has cornered the market on "common sense"... That all who disagree are fundamentally wrong...That some among us too dumb to make decisions about their life and well-being.

I think will move on, as well. My head also hurts from that wall. Thank you for the enlightening discussion.
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:08 PM   #48
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Vaccinations- Why Not You Too?


I may be sanctimonious about religion - I try not to be but it just comes out, and I realize it is not a good trait - but I did NOT infer that you were "fundamentally wrong" in believing what you believe. The part of your statement that was fundamentally wrong was thinking that science is as much a faith-based exercise as any religion. That is a fundamental misuse of the word faith. Even a priest or minister would tell you that. "Faith" in science is not what turns your lights on at your house but it is what makes you go to church.

As for the common sense thing... I guess I confused "common sense," which is a catch-all for anything one inherently understands as true, for logical reasoning. And I mean the phrase "logical reasoning" in the scientific way, not in a way to insinuate that you are illogical or unreasonable. YOu seem EXTREMELY reasonable and I appreciate the way you've responded.
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Old 08-30-2013, 05:57 PM   #49
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Vaccinations- Why Not You Too?


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Regarding personal experience...it is not always "opinion". Nor are scientists always pure and factual, untainted by personal bias.

My personal experience might be: I have never gotten the flu in 60 years of living (a fact). I choose to believe that, for me, getting a flu vaccine is riskier than not (cannot be proven either way, including with science). Science based on statistical generalities of large populations is no more factual for my own life than this.

But, I guess we all have absolute faith in something. Some people choose to have faith in science. I would certainly not suggest that they are not free to have this faith.
Right, so dumb luck for one guy trumps peer-reviewed studies across TENS OF THOUSANDS of cases.

It's not "faith" in science. It's understanding the power of repeatable testing and consistent results across many, MANY cases. Not just "blind faith" or trusting in luck.

Science based on statistical generalities across large populations IS more factual than your one limited set of experiences. It's all about numbers and testing across much wider samples. That's what actual science is all about.
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Old 08-30-2013, 06:03 PM   #50
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I doubt that it will be the r word that gets this shut down. More likely it would be the sanctimonious (and unproductive) belief that one has cornered the market on "common sense"... That all who disagree are fundamentally wrong...That some among us too dumb to make decisions about their life and well-being.
No. And this is a common ploy to evade the debate. Come too close to pulling the foundation out from under one aspect of a given argument and people extrapolate that into some larger loss. It's not. Yes, it's uncomfortable to be challenged, and shown wrong. But that unpleasantness doesn't change the stark reality.

But history is far too replete with examples of wrong-headed thinking and the price paid by those actually speaking the logical and undeniably provable facts.

The question then becomes which side of history do you want to be on? The side that accepted, supported and demanded logical and thorough understanding of things around them? Or ones going on mere superstitions?
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Old 08-30-2013, 10:17 PM   #51
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Vaccinations- Why Not You Too?


Alright. It has gotten interesting again. I will try to avoid being too sensitive this time.

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The part of your statement that was fundamentally wrong was thinking that science is as much a faith-based exercise as any religion.
As a point of clarification, I actually have great confidence in scientific methods and conclusions. The faith part, in my mind, is that confidence that science can explain everything. That those things that can be seen, felt, tasted, smelled or heard are the limits of what are truth. That if science cannot prove it, then it cannot be true by very definition. Science is limited by man's abilities. I choose to believe (faith) that there are truths beyond that which science can prove. Others choose to believe (faith) that truth is limited by what science can prove. This is not the same as saying all scientific conclusions are invalid, opinion, or faith-based.

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No. And this is a common ploy to evade the debate. Come too close to pulling the foundation out from under one aspect of a given argument and people extrapolate that into some larger loss. It's not. Yes, it's uncomfortable to be challenged, and shown wrong. But that unpleasantness doesn't change the stark reality.
This may be true in the general sense. In my case, i was concerned about my abilility to keep away from the name calling.

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Right, so dumb luck for one guy trumps peer-reviewed studies across TENS OF THOUSANDS of cases.
Dumb luck? Is it possible that some people are more immune than others? Is it possible that certain lifestyle decisions have an affect on likelihood of catching some diseases? Is it possible that someone can consult with experts in the field and decide that not taking vaccine is less risky than taking vaccine? The part that it is dumb luck is, perhaps, the fortune of inheriting good genes. I simply inteneded to suggest that some people have differing risks of catching the flu.
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Traffic laws, like vaccination statutes, are there to protect all. When a person isn't vaccinated It can affect a bunch of other people...just like running a stop sign.
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There are obviously laws against child abuse. I assume you would not be in favor of repealing the laws that say you can't murder your children. There are even laws saying you can't purposefully harm your children, or risk their lives unnecessarily.
Of course one should not murder another human being. Old. Young. NO human being.

Argument such as this are, to me the most thoght provoking. Can anything one person does that could have an affect on another justify regulation. Do I have the right to decide what you eat, what you drink, what you drive, where and when you drive, and what activities you participate in because it has a potential effect on my insurance rates (insurance, by the way, that I can choose NOT to purchase)? If we allow or government to regulate our live like this, where does it end? My cocnern is that once precedent such as this is set, there will be no limits. It is easy to argue that that we should ban behaviour that would have no immediate affect on our lives, but this authority will eventually be used to prohibit activities that are important to you. By that time, it will be too late to stop.

I am sure there were other interesting points made, but I am getting typing cramps.

Last edited by oberkc; 08-30-2013 at 10:21 PM.
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Old 08-31-2013, 08:33 AM   #52
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Vaccinations- Why Not You Too?


Quantity of response doesn't correlate to quality. Say less, mean more.
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Old 09-30-2013, 12:34 AM   #53
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I will release a bit of information that most of you will just laugh at. Do you think that the flu shot, which is a vaccine, is pushed so hard simply to make money? Is it too keep people safe? No, the biggest push for the flu shot at this time is to shut areas of the brain down that control the viewing of low levels of light. The reason that this is so important is so people can not see an alien species that is living among us disguised as humans. As for vaccines themselves, yes, one shot could eradicate nearly all diseases. The agenda behind vaccines is multifaceted. Wiping out illness in such a large group of social security beneficiaries is simply not an option.
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Old 09-30-2013, 07:02 AM   #54
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I will release a bit of information that most of you will just laugh at. Do you think that the flu shot, which is a vaccine, is pushed so hard simply to make money? Is it too keep people safe? No, the biggest push for the flu shot at this time is to shut areas of the brain down that control the viewing of low levels of light. The reason that this is so important is so people can not see an alien species that is living among us disguised as humans. As for vaccines themselves, yes, one shot could eradicate nearly all diseases. The agenda behind vaccines is multifaceted. Wiping out illness in such a large group of social security beneficiaries is simply not an option.
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Old 09-30-2013, 08:55 AM   #55
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Late to the party but here goes. Flu shots really work for me, every time I have gotten one I got the flu. So I quit, I am 69 years old so I feel I'm old enough to make that decision, not an infant who is relying on my parents to make my decisions for me. When it comes to the shots for the major diseases with all the info on the internet look back at the times when these diseases were rampant. Children dying from whooping cough, hospital wards full of children in iron lungs and crippled from polio, measles and chicken pox were common childhood diseases. The only reason these are now under control is the shots. Are they totally eradicated, no, they keep popping up in some 3rd world countries. So in this age of worldwide travel how can you think it can't be brought to this country.
As far as your child and society you are wrong, he is in contact with society. Even if he never leaves the house and comes in contact with anyone, you do. Not only you but things you bring into the house such as food can carry viruses.

It is just my opinion and that of many doctors and scientific people that you are taking the biggest gamble in your childs life. Please if you do nothing else research some of the childhood diseases that are now in remission.
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:03 AM   #56
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Better sanitation, better nutrition. I was out of town and my wife took my son in for a flu shot. Against my wishes. So I get home, my wife's sister answers the door at my house. Turns out my son was very sick because he reacted to the shot. Or although he seemed fine, he got sick right before the shot was administered and the flu shot was the only thing that saved him. Maybe I am a rare type, but I feel if my kids mix it up with the the other kids, get dirty playing outside, they will not get sick. Just my two cents
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:21 AM   #57
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...sigh.... the idiocy continues...

It's the mixing up with people that will both help and harm you.

It was the overall increases in public cleanliness that lead to the greater problems with polio. Since everything got cleaner less people were exposed to it as infants/toddlers. Exposure at later ages lead to much greater complications. Now, should we go back to the less sanitary conditions? And bring cholera and dysentery along for the ride? Hardly, the polio vaccine solves the problem and a great many lives are spared needless suffering.

I'll say it again, don't make your children suffer for your ignorance. It applies to SO many things in life, not just vaccines.
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Old 10-01-2013, 08:51 AM   #58
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An other thing is the use of all the sanitizers they are being overused so much they are killing the good bacteria along with the bad.
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Old 10-01-2013, 09:25 AM   #59
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...sigh.... the idiocy continues...
I don't think you should call anyone an idiot just because they disagree with you. Just shows you have a problem yourself.
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Old 10-01-2013, 10:05 AM   #60
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Vaccinations- Why Not You Too?


If I wanted to call a specific person an idiot I'd do just that. And that's not what I'm doing here, tempting though it might be...

But a behavior can be described as idiocy, and it's hard to argue with ones bent on believing in it, regardless of significant evidence proving them wrong. Reading comprehension is tricky sometimes.

As for people with problems, it's far to say we all have something wrong with us. But with regards to vaccines and the public health, it'd be nice if the idiocy of a few didn't put all the rest of the sensible people at risk.

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