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Old 08-28-2013, 04:36 PM   #31
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Vaccinations- Why Not You Too?


also, you may be better off giving the vaccines in a spread out manner rather than trying to cram them all in when the kid gets to school age if you choose to then.

also if anyone in the household is a part of society, all the household is. reducing contact may help, but contact is still contact.

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Old 08-29-2013, 08:13 AM   #32
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Vaccinations- Why Not You Too?


Trouble with spreading them out is you increase the window with which the problem can develop. That and increase the cost of production, delivery and administering them.

Playing games with your child's long-term health based on fraudulent behavior from a scientist, shrill nonsense from celebrities and superstition is no way to be a good parent. Plenty of people do just that, unfortunately. And their children and society end up paying much too high a price as a result.

Isn't it tough enough being a parent without putting your child at risk of crippling illnesses or death based on idiocy and superstition?
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Old 08-29-2013, 08:32 AM   #33
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Vaccinations- Why Not You Too?


Relevant : http://www.nbcnews.com/health/measle...-21-8C11009315
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Old 08-29-2013, 12:58 PM   #34
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Vaccinations- Why Not You Too?


This is certainly an interesting topic.
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This is why schools demand vaccine records before enrollment.
In my experience, schools should not be trusted to be the end-all as to what is reasonable, logical, or having any sense.

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My only "opinion" is that people should trust science, not superstition or retired ...
While I don't trust superstition or most celebrities, science is only a data point in my decision process...not always conclusive. Remember, scientists are people too...fallible, with less than perfect vision, and sometimes having an agenda.
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Old 08-29-2013, 01:21 PM   #35
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Vaccinations- Why Not You Too?


Real science means that something is peer reviewed and adjusted for empircal evidence. That is science. True, some "scientist" who just floats an opinion doesn't deserve to be taken as true. But real peer reviewed science, the kind that is reflected in the decades of use for vaccines, is the best we can do. if you don't accept that this as the gold standard, you are trading in the area of superstition or pseudo-science, where anyone's unscientific opinion gets equal consideration. The internet, celebrity "experts" at their best to feed ridiculous conspiracy theories and junk science to the gullible.

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This is certainly an interesting topic.
Remember, scientists are people too...fallible, with less than perfect vision, and sometimes having an agenda.
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Old 08-29-2013, 01:32 PM   #36
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if you don't accept that this as the gold standard, you are trading in the area of superstition or pseudo-science, where anyone's unscientific opinion gets equal consideration.
But there are other considerations beyond those you mention, including personal experience, and faith that there is truth beyond what man has the ability to see or measure. For me, science is certainly a strong consideration, but not the only one that matters. And things other than science do not automatically fall into the category of supersition and interent myth.

Then there is the issue of freedom. Face it, two people cannot exist without one affecting the other. That does not, however, give one the right to make personal decisions for the other, no matter how right the one person is, or believes himself to be. We all have the right to make good and bad decisions.
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Old 08-29-2013, 01:51 PM   #37
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But there are other considerations beyond those you mention, including personal experience, and faith that there is truth beyond what man has the ability to see or measure.
Personal experience is tainted by your opinions. That's why you look to science. That's why valid scientific studies have to be "blind" - if the person doing the study has ANY freedom to interpret results based on his or her own biases, THEY WILL DO SO, even though they're often not aware. You or someone saying "everyone who gets the flu shot gets the flu" can be taken by you as "personal experience," but it's no more factual than your 4 year old telling you she heard Santa Claus on the roof. Delusion, confirmation bias and any other number of logical fallacies are always in play for individuals.

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Then there is the issue of freedom. Face it, two people cannot exist without one affecting the other. That does not, however, give one the right to make personal decisions for the other, no matter how right the one person is, or believes himself to be. We all have the right to make good and bad decisions.
Look, I'm all for personal freedoms, I really am, but everyone has a threshold. At one side there's anarchists, at the other side you have "communists," and everyone else is in the middle. Whether you draw the line before or after immunizations is entirely up to you and your personal philosophy. Whether society agrees with you is a different story. I actually do agree that you shouldn't be forced to have vaccinations.... but to me you're irresponsible and borderline abusive.
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Old 08-29-2013, 02:50 PM   #38
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Regarding personal experience...it is not always "opinion". Nor are scientists always pure and factual, untainted by personal bias.

My personal experience might be: I have never gotten the flu in 60 years of living (a fact). I choose to believe that, for me, getting a flu vaccine is riskier than not (cannot be proven either way, including with science). Science based on statistical generalities of large populations is no more factual for my own life than this.

But, I guess we all have absolute faith in something. Some people choose to have faith in science. I would certainly not suggest that they are not free to have this faith.
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Old 08-29-2013, 05:10 PM   #39
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They way people describe science as a faith-based exercise is one of the few things that helps me understand how people have blind faith in things.

It's fundamentally WRONG, but at least I understand it.
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:25 PM   #40
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Vaccinations- Why Not You Too?


You are correct, scientists themselves are not infallible and totally unbiased, but peer reviewed science is as close as we can get. It doesn't rely on anyone's opinion. It is tested and reviewed and adjusted to incorporate new information. If you don't believe in that then you are welcome to live in superstition. Sometimes I think a significant part of our civilization is regressing to what we escaped in the dark ages... Unbelievable. I guess it's a free country.

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Regarding personal experience...it is not always "opinion". Nor are scientists always pure and factual, untainted by personal bias.

But, I guess we all have absolute faith in something. Some people choose to have faith in science. I would certainly not suggest that they are not free to have this faith.
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:57 PM   #41
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Vaccinations- Why Not You Too?


Some of you remind me of the people who say that everyone should have freedom of religion, but if they believe different than you, they are dumb and wrong.
It has been proven again and again, there are no absolutes, anything is possible.
There have been children severely injured and killed because of vaccinations. It should be a personal choice.
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Old 08-29-2013, 10:48 PM   #42
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Vaccinations- Why Not You Too?


The most interesting part of this discusion to me is not the argument about whether it is smart or not to get vacinations. More interesting is WHO gets to decide that it is smart FOR ME to get vacinations.

When I see how easily we give away our freedoms, it makes me sad for the country.
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Old 08-30-2013, 09:57 AM   #43
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Some of you remind me of the people who say that everyone should have freedom of religion, but if they believe different than you, they are dumb and wrong.
Oh boy, time for a refresher course on what "freedom of religion" means!! The Constitution says

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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
I'm not sure when someone's opinion became the will of Congress. You have freedom of religion, which means no government agent can prevent you from believing what you believe. I would fight right along with you if there were a law passed telling you you couldn't believe what you do. People can still mock you for believing in fairy tales, just like religious folks can picket abortion centers and soldier's funerals and tell us all we're going to hell.

Back on topic - nowhere in that little blurb from the Constitution does it mention vaccinations. General welfare (a phrase that DOES show up in the Constitution, FYI) is often considered to be under the purview of a government. There are obviously laws against child abuse. I assume you would not be in favor of repealing the laws that say you can't murder your children. There are even laws saying you can't purposefully harm your children, or risk their lives unnecessarily. Many smart people would argue that not protecting them against preventable diseases is a form of malicious harm. Myself included.

Sorry if my opinion offends you, but I assure you it is NOT impinging on your freedoms, religious or otherwise. I'm simply trying to just engage you in debate. You're free to do whatever you want, and you don't even need me or anyone else to tell you that.
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Old 08-30-2013, 10:08 AM   #44
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Hey BobMan, I'll let you take it from here on. Facts, statistics and common sense are very much absent so further argument with these guys is like

Good luck!
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Old 08-30-2013, 10:25 AM   #45
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Vaccinations- Why Not You Too?


I need to step back too. I'm sure just mentioning the 'r' word is going to get me banned and the thread shut down anyway.

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