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Old 03-12-2011, 01:53 PM   #1
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This is not exactly chump change........

Subject: 2010 Wisconsin Teacher Actual Wages – Wisc Govt wages exposedAVERAGE WAGE AND BENEFITS (remember this is for about 9 months of work)
TEACHERS:
Milwaukee $86,297
Elmbrook $91,065
Germantown $83,818
Hartland Arrwhd $90,285 (highest teacher was $122,952-lowest was $64,942)
Men Falls $81,099
West Bend $82,153
Waukesha $92,902
Sussex $82,956
Mequon $95,297
Kettle Mor $87,676
Muskego $91,341
STAFF:
Arrowhead – Bus Mng – Kopecky – $169,525
Arrowhead – Principal – Wieczorek – $152,519
Grmtwn – Asst Princ – Dave Towers – $123,222
Elmbrk – Burliegh Elemetary – Principal Zahn- $142,315 (for a primary school!!)
Madison – Asst Principal – McGrath – $127,835
UNIVERSITY of WISCONSIN STAFF (2009) (salary alone):
Michael Knetter – Prof of Bus – $327,828
Carolyn Martin -Chancellor Mad- $437,000
Hector Deluca – Prof of Nutritional Science – $254,877 (really??)
(source:Madison.com -as the UW removed salaries from being posted online in 2007- why if they are so low?)
How about some other “public servant job” ??? What do they make?
Madison Garbage men (2009) (salary only):
Garbageman, Mr. Nelson earned $159,258 in 2009, including $109,892 in overtime and other pay.
Garbageman, Greg Tatman, who earned $125,598
7 Madison garbage men made over $100,000 30 Madison garbage men made over $70,000
MILWAUKEE CITY BUS DRIVERS (salary only):
136 Drivers made more than $70,000
54 Drivers made more than $80,000
18 Drivers made more than $90,000
8 Drivers made more than $100,000
Top Driver made $117,000
(Source WTMJ)
(The average private bus driver makes $9-13 an hour (about 20,000 yr) with no pension, or healthcare

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Old 03-12-2011, 02:27 PM   #2
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Speak it brother, unions USED to serve a purpose. Nothing against union workers, I just think union bosses and unions altogether hurt their industry and marketplace in the long run. But I'm sure there are plenty to disagree with me, but I don't plan on arguing the point. If a private worker doesn't like his/her pay, then find a different company that desires to have workers with good work ethic and won't complain that he/she doesn't get paid doctors salaries for brick-mason's work. Don't want to be in the trades because of the pay, how about getting a degree, or starting your own company to make more money.

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Old 03-14-2011, 01:33 PM   #3
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Now to hijack this thread.

Several years ago, my sister in law worked for a company in Alaska. The office employees wanted to unionize. The company was against the plan and fired the employees. Problem solved, the company, the TEAMSTERS!

Before anyone gets on a high horse, I have been a member of the IAFF, and have been on the bargaining committee.
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Old 03-14-2011, 02:08 PM   #4
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I'm a right-leaning union member, which puts me in a very small minority amongst union members, therefore the Wisconsin debacle leaves me a bit torn.

bernieb points out some of the grossly bloated salaries, and I agree it's a little out of control. I see way too many 6-figure salaries there. I can't totally disagree with Luke, either. Yes, unions can and have hurt the overall health of certain companies, although I feel there are some exceptions.

I feel there are still some pros to unions, but there are plenty of cons, too. With that said, at this point I really don't feel that statewide abolition of collective bargaining is an absolutely necessary measure needed to help balance the books.

It's an unfortunate predicament, no matter what side you're on.
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Old 03-14-2011, 02:09 PM   #5
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Remember that the salaries listed above are for those who are considered public employee's, man, need to go to WI, they pay really well, no wonder they want to crack down!!!

I wonder how that compares to all the other public employee's working in this country?

Interesting one would be for Virginia, particularly Washington, one of the highest per capita pay areas in the country.

Here Here for the spending of our hard earned tax dollars what a farse.

And MI has more public employee's than 46 other states in this country, no wonder they have so much trouble balancing the budget.

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Old 03-14-2011, 03:07 PM   #6
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I work for a municipality (in the Chicago area) and I can assure you that none of us are making salaries like that. We have one employee in the low-6-figure bracket - the administrator. Department heads (4) are salaried in the $80-$90K range. All hold masters degrees, engineering titles, or MPAs. After them, I am probably in the mix with 1-2 other people as the next-highest paid (Info. Systems Coord).

Our public works laborers are local 150 - they organized just after I was promoted. Most of them saw as $1-$2 pay increase at that time, though one guy who was experienced was actually making above union scale. I'm not sure how that worked out for him.

Police are unionized, obviously. Certain members of the clerical staff are also unionized. It sucks. We had a layoff last year of a few non-union employees and eliminated one clerical union position. With the union rules of seniority "bumping" other people around, we lost one of the best clerical staff members we had working here, because some of the inferior performers had been here longer. Things like that are reasons that bother me - management can't choose the best workers to stay and the lesser performers to go.


My wife is a teacher, and I will agree that many of the teacher salaries are ridiculous. I know quite a few people who go through the effort of getting otherwise-worthless Masters degrees just to bump up the salary scale; and continue to put out a lackluster performance in the classroom. For that reason, I think teachers should be able to be paid/ranked/bonused on merit and not union scale. Many of the younger (<10 years experience) teachers are bringing more to the table than the old guard who just want to keep the status quo and collect a paycheck. Salaries do not show that though. If you've been there a long time, you get more money - regardless if you are a good or bad teacher. If we want to improve education, why not erase salary schedules and let the good teachers get paid for doing a better job.

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Old 03-14-2011, 03:59 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by hyunelan2 View Post

Police are unionized, obviously. Certain members of the clerical staff are also unionized. It sucks. We had a layoff last year of a few non-union employees and eliminated one clerical union position. With the union rules of seniority "bumping" other people around, we lost one of the best clerical staff members we had working here, because some of the inferior performers had been here longer. Things like that are reasons that bother me - management can't choose the best workers to stay and the lesser performers to go.


My wife is a teacher, and I will agree that many of the teacher salaries are ridiculous. I know quite a few people who go through the effort of getting otherwise-worthless Masters degrees just to bump up the salary scale; and continue to put out a lackluster performance in the classroom. For that reason, I think teachers should be able to be paid/ranked/bonused on merit and not union scale. Many of the younger (<10 years experience) teachers are bringing more to the table than the old guard who just want to keep the status quo and collect a paycheck. Salaries do not show that though. If you've been there a long time, you get more money - regardless if you are a good or bad teacher. If we want to improve education, why not erase salary schedules and let the good teachers get paid for doing a better job.
I agree with you and will add that "merit pay" has certainly been discussed by our Gov. & legislature along with this bill. As you stated, the union is very quick to "sacrifice the lamb" with it's current situation. Time after time in the CB procedure, the union bargaining agents have said right out "go ahead with the lay-off's, we're not taking monetary concessions." It's obviously just a a political ploy, attempting to use the new teachers as pawns in order to make the opposition look negative by decreasing teaher's jobs.

And to clarify the OP's post, those numbers are indeed accurate according to the state DPI site, but I'd like to clarify that it's the districts cost for the teachers/admins. And this is at the core of the real battle here:

What districts (tax-payers) pay out minus what teachers actually recieve equals what everyone is fighting over in WI.
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Old 03-14-2011, 04:13 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by hyunelan2 View Post
With the union rules of seniority "bumping" other people around, we lost one of the best clerical staff members we had working here, because some of the inferior performers had been here longer. Things like that are reasons that bother me - management can't choose the best workers to stay and the lesser performers to go.
This is precisely (one of the things) I had in mind when I said there are disadvantages to unions.

I have some coworkers who are absolutely useless, yet are paid the same or more than I am. Some people take advantage of the fact that they're protected, regardless of how little work they do. Those people lack the intelligence, work ethic and work quality to hold a non-union job, since they'd be fired immediately - if they were even hired in the first place.

The fact that there is very little management can do to weed out the weak links is something that I'll always dislike.
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Old 03-14-2011, 04:59 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by bernieb View Post
This is not exactly chump change........

Subject: 2010 Wisconsin Teacher Actual Wages – Wisc Govt wages exposedAVERAGE WAGE AND BENEFITS (remember this is for about 9 months of work)
TEACHERS:
Milwaukee $86,297
Elmbrook $91,065
Germantown $83,818
Hartland Arrwhd $90,285 (highest teacher was $122,952-lowest was $64,942)
Men Falls $81,099
West Bend $82,153
Waukesha $92,902
Sussex $82,956
Mequon $95,297
Kettle Mor $87,676
Muskego $91,341
Sounds like good money unless you remember that these are not just saleries but TOTAL COMPENSATION numbers, meaning they include salary and benefits packages. It amazes me that there are so many people willing to take to the streets to stop teachers from being "overpaid"
(according to the interwebs, the average WI teacher makes $50k a year + bennies, the average retail store manager makes about the same salary, but probably gets less benefits ).

Personally, I think it's in everyone's best interest that they get good healthcare, as we all know how productive the kids are when their teacher is out sick. I guess you have the right to believe whatever you want to about it, but I only hope that all the people that think teachers are overpaid also equally outraged by pro athletes and hollywood for the same reasons.
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Old 03-14-2011, 05:05 PM   #10
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Please note that these numbers are the salary PLUS THE BENEFITS. Yes, a public employee ordinarily makes no more than a private one-- save the occasional overtime abuse. But they often are entitled to pensions with little or no personal contribution, and health insurance with little or no contribution. Ask them to contribute a little to these underfunded benefits-- even though it's still way lower than what a private employee contributes to inferior HDHPs and 401Ks-- and they revolt.

Edit to respond to Mr Chips: that's the point: no one gets better benefits than public employees. This used to be OK, because the tradeoff was that while public employees didn't get the big bucks, they didn't have to worry about retirement or health care. Now, they want to earn like capitalists but be entitled like socialists.

Last edited by operagost; 03-14-2011 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 03-14-2011, 06:02 PM   #11
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Edit to respond to Mr Chips: that's the point: no one gets better benefits than public employees.
I'll keep that in mind when Wall St annouces their next round of bonuses.

The funniest part of this debate is when the banks were all being bailed out with OUR money, a lot of people wanted wanted the companies that took the money to cap salaries, bonuses etc, and a bunch of politicians ( mostly on the right) were saying no way, as it would cripple these companies ( the same companies that crippled our economy) by not allowing them to attract and retain the best talent. Today many of these same politicians have no problem stripping away the benefits that make being a school teacher slighty more appealing than being a manger of a Starbucks. On the bright side, less talented teachers will mean school will be a lot more fun for a lot of kids
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Old 03-14-2011, 06:13 PM   #12
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I'll keep that in mind when Wall St annouces their next round of bonuses.

The funniest part of this debate is when the banks were all being bailed out with OUR money, a lot of people wanted wanted the companies that took the money to cap salaries, bonuses etc, and a bunch of politicians ( mostly on the right) were saying no way, as it would cripple these companies ( the same companies that crippled our economy) by not allowing them to attract and retain the best talent. Today many of these same politicians have no problem stripping away the benefits that make being a school teacher slighty more appealing than being a manger of a Starbucks. On the bright side, less talented teachers will mean school will be a lot more fun for a lot of kids
So, you think the newer teacher's earning a salary in the 30's is no where near as good as the 25 year teacher earning a salary in the 60's??????

More compensation makes for a better teacher? Do you really believe there's that much money in the private sector in this economy?

Don't take this the wrong way, I have close family, freinds, and neighbors that will be effected by these cuts. But I think if you take the time to educate yourself to the outcome of the typical CB negotiations, you'll see this is a staked deck for employees, leaving little to no leverage for the employer (taxpayers in this case). Here's my stance: If the union CB reps (not the teachers directly, but those that represent them at the table) had not been so greedy and abused this non-balanced system, they wouldn't be in this predicament now.
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Old 03-14-2011, 06:51 PM   #13
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So, you think the newer teacher's earning a salary in the 30's is no where near as good as the 25 year teacher earning a salary in the 60's??????

More compensation makes for a better teacher? .
sort of, but you have it backwards, better teachers (often mean) more compensation. Better teachers, have more options, they can get hired by better school districts, which in turn pay more. Just like a really good doctor, lawyer, architect, indian chief, can get a job at the place in their field that pay the most, becuase they are good at what they do and in demand

More compensation in ANY JOB, public or private, makes it more desirable to larger number of people. Having more people actively seeking the position, means schools can be more selective.

If you gut out all the benefits, you are left with a job that pays more or less what you can earn in the private sector in many cases without a college degree ( some states require teachers to obtain a masters degree within a certain period)
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Old 03-15-2011, 10:42 AM   #14
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sort of, but you have it backwards, better teachers (often mean) more compensation. Better teachers, have more options, they can get hired by better school districts, which in turn pay more. Just like a really good doctor, lawyer, architect, indian chief, can get a job at the place in their field that pay the most, becuase they are good at what they do and in demand

Novel idea, but not even remotely close to the reality in WI current system. Pay is based on tenure and "last in, first out". The controversial repair bill that still needs to be passed does indeed have merit pay provisions, along with a few other progressive objectives for schools.

More compensation in ANY JOB, public or private, makes it more desirable to larger number of people. Having more people actively seeking the position, means schools can be more selective.

If you gut out all the benefits, you are left with a job that pays more or less what you can earn in the private sector in many cases without a college degree ( some states require teachers to obtain a masters degree within a certain period)
Not this state. Teachers here in WI generally wait until they're comfortable in a district to get the Masters degree, as they know they are a less marketable prospective employee if they are to move to a new district. The districts oftentimes can't afford to pay the additional premium on the Masters teacher. And as for jumping over to the private sector I don't think that's a real concern in this current economy. Decent middle-class job openings often draw hundreds, if not thousands, of applicants in this state.
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:12 AM   #15
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I have been a teacher. I don't do it anymore. I simply did not get paid enough to be abused by students, parents, other staff, and administration. I taught at both an-inner city impoverished school, a religious school, and at a private boarding school with only the most elite students. There was little difference. I was a conscientious, well liked educator. I did a good job.

I have been threatened by a student who outweighed me by 120 lbs. I have paid out of my own pocket for supplies. I have worked 16 hours days and weekends to only be paid for 8 hours on 5 days.

It wasn't worth it to be repeatedly told by people I got paid too much for only working 9 months a year. Do people not realize that a teacher's salary has to last the entire year - there isn't some MAGICAL job that materializes every summer. Teachers end up competing for crappy summer retail jobs with their PITA students. And often not getting hired at all because of the economy.

And on top of it all teachers (like all professionals) have to pay their student loans and pay for getting their master's degree (a requirement in many school districts).

The public employee debate is troubling on both sides - but teachers deserve to be defended. They work very hard and are generally disrespected by pretty much everyone.



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"I could do that myself. Where do you get off charging so much?"

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