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Old 03-12-2013, 08:18 PM   #16
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Real estate as an investment


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Originally Posted by creeper View Post
Doesn't work that way here. If you deliver a product or service and the Buyer fails to pay, then you are free to place a lien against his house.

In Canada it works a little differently than the States. In the States the bank will foreclose on your property for failure to pay the mortgage. In Canada when the bank takes your home it is resold as a power of sale. The main difference is that the bank is legally required to resell it for market value. You never see houses sold way below their value.
The bank takes the proceed of the sale and pays the remaining mortgage, then the creditors and if there is any money left the home owner gets it.

The end result is the same however for the creditor. Unless he placed a lien on the property he is out of luck
I understand and follow your way of thinking, however, selling with reservation of ownership does not make me a creditor since I am the owner of the fences I delivered and so these fences don't take part of the buyer's assets. Therefore, I have the right to take them back.

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Old 03-12-2013, 08:25 PM   #17
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Real estate as an investment


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I understand and follow your way of thinking, however, selling with reservation of ownership does not make me a creditor since I am the owner of the fences I delivered and so these fences don't take part of the buyer's assets. Therefore, I have the right to take them back.

A fence is not a chattel. It is a fixture and so therefore it is part of the buyers assets. They no longer belong to you

Sorry It just absolutely does not work that way. If you set one foot on the new owners property you could be arrested.

In fact, even if you install a fence for someone who remains in the property and still fails to pay you, you may not just come over and rip the fence out. Again, you will be arrested. You must take the proper channels which would consist of sueing in small claims court. The judge would no doubt rule in your favour providing you stayed within the law.

Last edited by creeper; 03-12-2013 at 08:29 PM.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:26 PM   #18
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Real estate as an investment


There are a lot of public notices made before each step is taken.

One might think that these notices are made in order to give notice to the public about what is happening (file your liens now, stop living there, come and un-install your fence).

At some point, a line has to be drawn. Otherwise, your grandchildren could come back in 50 years and demand payment for that fence and the interest on top of it.

I'm sure that one could write a textbook about laws pertaining to this, and actual circumstances, happenings, and cases.

Think about all the property which has changed hands forcefully over the years as a result of government change.

If you were looking at buying property in some eastern European country, you would have to have some guarantee that some guy wouldn't come back and say that it was stolen from his great grandparents in 1939.

Think what will happen in Cuba when the regime falls there. There are probably hundreds if not thousands of people who are ready to start a legal process to get their property back there.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:37 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by harrymontana View Post
I understand and follow your way of thinking, however, selling with reservation of ownership does not make me a creditor since I am the owner of the fences I delivered and so these fences don't take part of the buyer's assets. Therefore, I have the right to take them back.
Not here. Once installed it becomes part of real property. And if you take it back without the new owners permission. You are arrested.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:54 PM   #20
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Yeah, but let us not forget many banks did what was called robo signing. Actually the banks forged documents to steal people's houses. This is all just swept under the rug. And back to paints original question. Pd I am a slumlord, which it sound like you want to be. Good luck and it is certainly not for everyone. Your rent money is taxed as income, let us not forget that little detail.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:00 AM   #21
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A fence is not a chattel. It is a fixture and so therefore it is part of the buyers assets. They no longer belong to you

Sorry It just absolutely does not work that way. If you set one foot on the new owners property you could be arrested.

In fact, even if you install a fence for someone who remains in the property and still fails to pay you, you may not just come over and rip the fence out. Again, you will be arrested. You must take the proper channels which would consist of sueing in small claims court. The judge would no doubt rule in your favour providing you stayed within the law.
exactly, it is fixed, this is exactly the problem
yes, I cannot just walk into the garden..
so this is exactly what I mean, still though, it is my fence and does not belong to the debtor seased assets.
Do you see what I mean?
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:08 AM   #22
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If you were looking at buying property in some eastern European country, you would have to have some guarantee that some guy wouldn't come back and say that it was stolen from his great grandparents in 1939.

Think what will happen in Cuba when the regime falls there. There are probably hundreds if not thousands of people who are ready to start a legal process to get their property back there.
1) haha, very funny, but if you buy a bike for $10 and resell it for $12, and I am the real owner, the law says that you, the buyer of the buyer shoudl have known that this is not a legal sale (second hand bikes don't go for $12) so you will loose your bike to the original owner. This is just an example.

2) For the fences these do not belong to the seased assets by the bank and so are not resold to some new owner and so the seller - who sells under reservation of ownership - is still able to get back his fences. Not from 1939, but within 5 years I would say.

3) then for Cuba, I am almost in Cuba, Bolivia, and when I need to get my fences back authorities go there (for a fee) and facilitate my job to get my fences back. In either case, I still need the reservation of ownership.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:15 AM   #23
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Real estate as an investment


Yes I see what you are saying. The fence material was bought and installed by under the agreement that you would be paid for your product.

However, as unfair as that may seem, it is the law. The only way to retrieve either your fence or your money is to (1) place a liens on the property or (2) small claims court.

If the owner of the house is bankrupt and the house is foreclosed and resold for less then market value then there are no funds left over to pay any unpaid debts to people like fence builders or hydro companies or credit card companies.

As I said though in Canada, the house goes Power of Sale and the proceeds of the sale are used to pay off unpaid debt. If there is any left over then the original owner gets reimbursed. If there is not enough then the debtee's are out of luck

Often the expense and hassle of going to court outweighs the possible award by the judge.

So In the end the unpaid people are just out of luck.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:50 PM   #24
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Just as a fun discussion, I have often wondered what would happen in a rental house or house being bought on contract when the landlord or seller colludes to defraud creditors.

Let's say I rent out a house to a guy named Fred. Fred is the tenant and I'm the landlord.

First thing, I tell Fred to contact Harry in Bolivia and get a nice fence built around the property, and some other fences in the interior.

Fred does this, also the following:

1. Orders all new appliances installed.
2. Has the kitchen and bath remodeled.
3. Gets somebody to come and build a nice new garage.
4. Gets some new boobs for his wife installed.
5. Buys a lot of new furniture and floor coverings.

So what happens when Fred pays for none of this, then skips town and only takes his wife's boobs with him?

And what if he was buying the house on contract?

For simplicity, let's say Harry did all the work, including the boob job on Fred's wife.

Harry comes to me and explains that he wants paid for everything. I tell him that I never even got to enjoy Fred's wife's boobs. He says, "Well, ja, OK on that, but I want paid for everything else." I explain that I didn't order the work done and I can't pay, so can he put a lien on my property?

What if my neighbors go on vacation for 3 weeks and I go over to their house and pretend to be them and contract someone to come in and build a garage there? They come home to a nice new garage and a lien on their property?

I could go on forever and keep Harry working for some time.
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:26 PM   #25
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......

Last edited by creeper; 03-13-2013 at 10:39 PM.
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Old 03-14-2013, 04:42 AM   #26
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First you say the seller colludes with the tenant, then you go on to say that the tenant gets more then the seller says to. So your scenario is it doesn't stick with your original question.

But if a seller does collude. Then it is a conspiracy to commit fraud. And you could end up losing your rental and the home you live in, plus some freedom. Probably 3 to 5 years.
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:38 AM   #27
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Real estate as an investment


Quote:
Originally Posted by cleveman View Post
Just as a fun discussion, I have often wondered what would happen in a rental house or house being bought on contract when the landlord or seller colludes to defraud creditors.

Let's say I rent out a house to a guy named Fred. Fred is the tenant and I'm the landlord.

First thing, I tell Fred to contact Harry in Bolivia and get a nice fence built around the property, and some other fences in the interior.

Fred does this, also the following:

1. Orders all new appliances installed.
2. Has the kitchen and bath remodeled.
3. Gets somebody to come and build a nice new garage.
4. Gets some new boobs for his wife installed.
5. Buys a lot of new furniture and floor coverings.

So what happens when Fred pays for none of this, then skips town and only takes his wife's boobs with him?

And what if he was buying the house on contract?

For simplicity, let's say Harry did all the work, including the boob job on Fred's wife.

Harry comes to me and explains that he wants paid for everything. I tell him that I never even got to enjoy Fred's wife's boobs. He says, "Well, ja, OK on that, but I want paid for everything else." I explain that I didn't order the work done and I can't pay, so can he put a lien on my property?

What if my neighbors go on vacation for 3 weeks and I go over to their house and pretend to be them and contract someone to come in and build a garage there? They come home to a nice new garage and a lien on their property?

I could go on forever and keep Harry working for some time.

yes, then Harry comes around with the Cuban police to get his fences!
very good post, interesting questions
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Old 03-14-2013, 10:11 PM   #28
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Take a moment and try to imagine all the fraud that takes place after a hurricane.

A lot of guys are busy writing up invoices for work which they didn't do a week or so immediately before the hurricane.

They figure out a way to cooperate with the homeowners to turn this in with their insurance claim for damages.

Next time you pay your homeowners insurance premium, come to this thread and tell me there isn't a lot of fraud taking place.
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:28 PM   #29
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cleveman, I think it is the other way around, the home owners can say there hasn't been any work done.

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