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Old 07-13-2010, 11:09 PM   #1
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New Vinyl Siding Went From $43k to $15k In A Few Days


Hello,

I just found this site and read quite a bit on vinyl siding along with info on cedar siding. Very informative and I thank you all for the guidance you have provided to many others.

OK. Here's my own story.

I have decided to have my cedar house sided with vinyl, I am not doing this myself so the only DIY I have is for my own sanity. I have 2 main reasons for vinyl siding:
1) Much less maintenance with vinyl
2) Cedar has to be maintained every x number of years at quite a cost.

This has been a super learning experience, which is now going into its 2nd month. I started off knowing very little and now have a good understanding of what I want and need. Not perfect, but a really good frame of reference.

I've got a ranch house with a walkout basement. The house is approx. 25 years old. It has some brickwork on the front along with cedar siding, which is around the rest of the house as well. On 2 walls, that are most exposed to the weather, there is quite a bit of warping, splitting, ageing, etc.

I have had 6 different contractors/builders give me different bids and a few different approaches. Some want to tear off the 2 bad sides. Some want to tear off all 4 sides. Bids ranged from $43k (YES, 43K - by the time he left, he was down to $29 - today, offering $15k, but still giving me what I want). Average price was $19k. I have narrowed it down to 2 builders comparing apples to apples and priced around $15k. I won't go into details about what they are offering me, just know that I have created my own 'checklist' of about 35 items that I gleaned from all 6 builders by listening to all their talks and not rushing them but taking my time. So far, I have decided to take off all 4 sides of cedar.

The main concern, right now, is:
I went to my attack this evening to look at what was behind the cedar walls. Builder #1 told me that I have wood behind the cedar. He took his knife and stuck it into the cedar and it stopped when he hit it. Builder #2 told me that I did not have any wood or any type of material that he could attach the new vinyl to and that he would have to put up plywood at an additional expense, which he is currently working up a bid for. Builder #2 also took a screwdriver and put it through the same area that builder #1 did and found it stopped when he hit wood. He then tried other areas and it seemed that his screwdriver went right through without hitting any wood or whatever. He explained to me that above my foundation, I have a 'header board' (I'm not sure what he called it so that is my term) and that is where my flooring starts. So, he told me that I don't have anything to nail the new vinyl to.

What I saw in my attack, between the studs, was black and looked like wood or some sort of material that was certainly thicker than paper. I could see nails coming through this material, which, probably, are the nails holding the cedar to this material as well as nails into the 2x4 studs.

So, how could his screwdriver go right through this? Maybe this 'black material' is old and rotted in some spots? It looked good from the inside of the attack but I could only see just so much of it.

Builder #1 is coming over tomorrow to see what this is all about since he said that I should have no problem attaching the new vinyl to my house.

And, one more concern if you please. Builder #1 says that I don't need Tyvec just 1/4 inch foam backer board. Builder #2 will only do the job with backer board and Tyvec.

Any and all help will be much appreciated.

Thanks....NYCGTO

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Old 07-13-2010, 11:45 PM   #2
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New Vinyl Siding Went From $43k to $15k In A Few Days


sounds like you have a nailable fiberglass insulation board on the wall,I would suggest sheathing the walls with plywood,rather than expecting new nails to hold in the old stuff,
I recommend full siding removal,then installation of a vapor barrier(Tyvek?),and installation of a 1/2 " extruded foam,rather than expanded polystryrene which loses it`s r -value over time.and yes it is code to have a vapor barrier to the inside of the foam,if you had old tarpaper underneath,and it was in good condition,it could serve the same purpose

also the extruded foam gives you a much straighter ,cleaner wall to put siding on

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Old 07-14-2010, 06:35 AM   #3
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New Vinyl Siding Went From $43k to $15k In A Few Days


we confuse people when we call tyvek a ''vapor barrier''
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Old 07-14-2010, 06:40 AM   #4
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New Vinyl Siding Went From $43k to $15k In A Few Days


Ive seen a handfull of neighbors in my area upgrade thier cedar to vinyl these past few years. I have not seen Tyvek used, only the 1/4 foam backer board applied first on top of the cedar, then the vinyl overtop of this.
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:10 AM   #5
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New Vinyl Siding Went From $43k to $15k In A Few Days


OP said their removing the Cedar. You need something over the sheathing other than foam.

The only reason to use the 1/4” foam is to create a smooth surface to work on if going over the top of lap siding.

If your installing Vinyl over sheathing or even T1-11, the foam is a waste of money IMO.
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Old 07-14-2010, 07:26 AM   #6
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New Vinyl Siding Went From $43k to $15k In A Few Days


the siding insulation increases the R-value of the wall,and makes it more resistant to drafts as well when finished properly
As far as going over T-111,Not adding to the insulation would be foolish as there usually is no sub sheathing,and a lot less protection from the weather,have the `T-111 on my own house,added 3/4" t+g extruded foam,And the energy savings are well worth the expense
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Old 07-14-2010, 09:51 AM   #7
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New Vinyl Siding Went From $43k to $15k In A Few Days


extruded foam...now theres a vapor barrier
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Old 07-14-2010, 11:18 PM   #8
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New Vinyl Siding Went From $43k to $15k In A Few Days


Guys,

Thanks for your replies and advice. I had contractor #1 come over today. He poked into some of the cedar and took a look on my attik at the walls.

He feels that my house has some type of wood (product) all around it. Maybe a different type from the middle on up (black) and another product below. Kinda confusing, I know. At least to me. Once the cedar is removed, then we'll know for sure.

At this point, it looks like I am going with builder #1 since he explained a lot today. I'll update this site with the final results if anyone if interested.

In the meantime, again, thanks to all that took the time to read and advise.......NYCGTO
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Old 07-26-2010, 03:17 PM   #9
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New Vinyl Siding Went From $43k to $15k In A Few Days


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Originally Posted by nycgto View Post
Guys,

Thanks for your replies and advice. I had contractor #1 come over today. He poked into some of the cedar and took a look on my attik at the walls.

He feels that my house has some type of wood (product) all around it. Maybe a different type from the middle on up (black) and another product below. Kinda confusing, I know. At least to me. Once the cedar is removed, then we'll know for sure.

At this point, it looks like I am going with builder #1 since he explained a lot today. I'll update this site with the final results if anyone if interested.

In the meantime, again, thanks to all that took the time to read and advise.......NYCGTO
Next installment of “To Board or Not To Board: That is the Question??”

So, I inform contractor #2 (Lowes) what contractor #1 (Dalco) found. He (#2) comes back to me with a $2,200 additional bill to cover my home with OSB (?) board, ½” thick all around my house. If he finds that the upper portion of my house is OK with the ‘blackboard’ he will adjust his price accordingly. But he insists that I must have this board installed wherever he finds that there is no wood at all.
In the meantime, I used a utility knife and cut out a 1” x 6” piece of cedar from the outside wall that has the living room on the other side. I needed to know, myself, what is actually behind the cedar in my living space and not in the attic. When I removed the cedar, I found blue insulation foam about ½” – ¾” thick with some type of thin plastic behind it that, I think, holds it together. I told contractor #1 about my findings. He says that I have nothing to worry about and that the new vinyl is nailed directly to the studs. Therefore, no need for the wood and that the foam is good enough to get the vinyl straight onto the house. Does this sound OK?
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Old 07-26-2010, 04:02 PM   #10
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New Vinyl Siding Went From $43k to $15k In A Few Days


Personally i would want the OSB put on. I would not want the vinyl directly on the studs/foam board. Think about it in a heavy storm where a tree branch hits the side of your house. If you didn't have the osb on there it would come straight through into your house! I also have a cedar house and there is 3/4 blue foam between the cedar and studs. My cedar is in great shape and i wouldn't replace it however if i did i would pull the cedar and foam off to put the osb on. In my neighborhood, many are putting vinyl siding on as well however most i've seen are just putting it over the cedar.
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Old 07-26-2010, 04:33 PM   #11
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New Vinyl Siding Went From $43k to $15k In A Few Days


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Personally i would want the OSB put on. I would not want the vinyl directly on the studs/foam board. Think about it in a heavy storm where a tree branch hits the side of your house. If you didn't have the osb on there it would come straight through into your house! I also have a cedar house and there is 3/4 blue foam between the cedar and studs. My cedar is in great shape and i wouldn't replace it however if i did i would pull the cedar and foam off to put the osb on. In my neighborhood, many are putting vinyl siding on as well however most i've seen are just putting it over the cedar.
gmhammes, I agree with you on your assessment. I let the cedar wood go many years without maintenance, so now half the house has warping and shows the wood’s age. I am going to vinyl for resale and, mostly a maintenance-free home. The other half of the house’s wood looks very good since it does not get much abuse from the sun. However, most of the contractors that have given me estimates, agree that all 4 sides should be removed because keeping 2 and removing 2 would look uneven since all 4 sides are being covered in vinyl. As far as your concern about a tree branch coming into the side of the house, there is only 1 tree that is close to my house but it is a concern now that you mention it. I am taking your advise into serious consideration regarding the osb board. Better to do it “right” the first time.

Thanks for all your assistance.
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Old 07-26-2010, 06:17 PM   #12
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New Vinyl Siding Went From $43k to $15k In A Few Days


Have you ever thought about or priced out repairing the two sides of cedar siding?

Do you really think your house would be worth more with vinyl on it and the new owner stuck with whatever color "you" picked out?

There is no such thing a maintenance free. If a sales rep told you that their lying.

Are we so dam lazy these days that everything has to be wrapped in plastic?

I guess it all started with Grandmas plastic wrapped sofa.

I like wood.
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Old 07-26-2010, 11:46 PM   #13
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New Vinyl Siding Went From $43k to $15k In A Few Days


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Have you ever thought about or priced out repairing the two sides of cedar siding?

Do you really think your house would be worth more with vinyl on it and the new owner stuck with whatever color "you" picked out?

There is no such thing a maintenance free. If a sales rep told you that their lying.

Are we so dam lazy these days that everything has to be wrapped in plastic?

I guess it all started with Grandmas plastic wrapped sofa.

I like wood.
Kwikfishron, I love the look of wood also. Unfortunately, it does need maintenance every couple of years and that gets quite expensive. My house is quite large. When I first had the wood pressure washed and re-stained about 13 years ago, I paid $5k. 7 years ago I paid $7k. Today, they want almost $10k especially if I want to go to a lighter color and have the wood replaced on both sides that need it badly. The house is now 25 years old.

And, yes, I do think that the house will be worth more since most people, nowadays, do want a pretty-much maintenance-free house (I understand that there is no such thing as 100%) and they already know that the cedar does require the regular maintenance and upkeep. It’s not so much that we are so lazy these days, but more so that some (like myself) are retired and cannot afford to maintain the cedar the way it was intended. I got rid of grandma’s plastic wrapped sofa many years ago J.

So, as of this moment, the Dalco guy is coming over on Friday for me to pick the colors and sign the contract. I am going to go with replacing, or installing the osb board where necessary, especially between the studs as was recommended by others on this site (and some people that I know that had the same suggestion).

Thanks for your response. It is appreciated.

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