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Old 07-24-2009, 06:44 AM   #1
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parging concrete walls


What is the best tool to remove parging (including portland cement mixture previously skim coated on walls and bonding cement below the parging?)


Possible choices: hand held air scabbler, sds plus demoliton hammer with bushing tip, concrete grinder.

1. I think scabbler is the best

2. demolition hammer may work but the walls were built in 1915, I would hate to possibly damage them with such a powerful tool

3. grinder with dust shroud: lots of dust despite dust containment. A lot of grinder to remove about 1/4 inch of parging, and it will be hard to grind in tight places surrounded by pipes.

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Old 07-26-2009, 04:48 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by newzev View Post
..........I think scabbler is the best..........
Of the three choices Yes, but for your application on flaky walls it's still overkill. Hand Scabblers are Heavy Duty Tools that require a large CFM compressor.
Here is one with a 1/2" Air Inlet. That means NO DIY size compressor.
http://www.abgpl.com.au/pneumatic_to...blere_CK3.html


Unless you have a very Small Scrabbler. Why don't you at first try a brick chisel and 3lb hammer to scrape off the loose stuff.
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Last edited by PaliBob; 07-26-2009 at 04:55 AM. Reason: sp
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:53 PM   #3
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Bob,

Thank you for responding. I tried an SDS plus Bosch chipping hammer, and spent and exhausting amount of time removing the parging from 1/3 of a wall. I called Bosch and it appears they will refund me for the hammer as long as I return it in 30 days. SDS plus does not made bushing attachment or chisels much bigger than 1 1/2 inches. Bosch says they are willing to exchange the sds plus for a bigger SDS max variable speed demolition hammer. I can then buy a either chisel and especially a bushing tool.

I agree about the scabbler. If I go with the scablbler I'm hiring a professional. Except it costs tons of money.

At the present time the contractor, I am thinking of using, would use Aquafin crystalline waterproofing or maybe Kryton and also parge the walls with a rich portland mix including some aquafin IC.

Anyway I would love to do it myself. (Well not exactly love, but it would save a lot.)

Besides the basement that is 22 X 26 feet, I have a closed unvented crawl space in the front and back of poured basement.

The crawl spaces connect to the basement through the 6 inch space where the support beams connect basement and crawl space.

Last year, after reading about crawl space encapsulation, I put down polyethylene covering over the about the crawl spaces, and secured them to the walls.. We have had a lot of rain and the polyethylene which is supposed to trap the odor of the soil, is actually emitting more odor as the moisture is probably trapped underneath and I did not do a perfect job of securing the polyethelyne. My plan is to go back in with vinyl tape to cover any tiny openings I have missed and to blow fans into the crawl space to dry them out and recirculate the air to the basement where the dehumidifier will dry it out.

My goal is a dry basement, without humidity, where the walls no longer peel and the walls look finished instead of rough and pebbly and sandy, and also to control the smell from the crawl spaces.

My goal seems elusive, and I may have to capitulate and let a contractor take over. Unfortunately, these guys (I understand they have to make a living like everyone else) charge a fortune and are in and out without the problem fixed.

Thanks

Ken
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Old 07-26-2009, 02:32 PM   #4
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I tried an SDS plus Bosch chipping hammer, and spent and exhausting amount of time removing the parging from 1/3 of a wall......
Forget my brick chisel suggestion. I thought your walls were much softer.

Ken, The Contractor biggest expense is the labor to remove the Parging. Whatever you can remove yourself could make a big difference in cost.

The SDS Max is probably your best bet, especially if you can get it from Bosch CPO Reconditioned:
http://bosch.cpotools.com/hammers_an...s-max_hammers/

The SDS/Max has a lot more accessories than the SDS/Plus
http://fastenmsc.stores.yahoo.net/boschisandac1.html
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Old 07-26-2009, 03:00 PM   #5
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parging concrete walls


Hi Bob,


Why is it that I keep meeting such nice people like yourself online?

Anyway, the Bosch SDS max 11318 variable speed demolition hammer with no chisels is about $500.00. As you know the chisels are not cheap either. Should I splurge for carbide bits...or better yet... since you know your stuff... exactly what chisels do you think would do the best job? As you know I think a bushing tip, either one piece or separate shank and tip, and roughly a three inch wide chisel might do the job.

The concrete is porous and pebbly to feel, and wherever hydrostatic pressure has loosened the parging it is easy to take off. But in all other places where the bonding cement holds the parging on tight it is a lot of work to remove the stuff. Often the blue bonding agent is stuck on the wall and it is hard to get that off.

I noticed, what I think is a settlement crack going up the top third of the wall with a chunk readiy to fall off at the top. But that is the exception rather than the rule. The walls are a foot thick. My concern is that the demolition hammer might hit too hard and cause some breakage or cracks. If the scabbler is less likely to do that, maybe it is worth the extra money to hire a professional with big compressor and scabbler? Is there any recommended way to use the demolition hammers to chip away 1/4 to 1/2 icnch of parging without really gauging or cracking the concrete?

I have a 4.5 inch Ryobi grinder with a dust shroud I just bought . Needless to say with diamond cup it still kicks up way too much dust and prefer to use it as little as possible, or only when absolutely necessary.

Thanks,


Ken
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Old 07-26-2009, 06:36 PM   #6
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parging concrete walls


Ken, you may also want to look at spline drive roto hammers in this size. Same specs as the SDS max, but a little tougher drive system IMO. Sometimes you can dind these hammers in re-conditioned form or old models on close-out. I bought a very simple Dewalt 1.5" about 8 years ago for $300 that was rebuilt & it actually lasted for 5-6 years commercially. I have a bushing hammer (non-carbide) that we use every once in awhile for stonework, & it's held up well. Generally with the bushing hammer, you twist the tool as you go to speed up the process. I would go over everything once just to remove the loose material. There's a good chance that the existing plaster is as strong & bonded better than what you'll be using. So, patch what you were able to remove first & then coat everything once.

BYW, you will never be able to "waterproof" any foundation from the inside over any length of time. I think your on the right track though in addressing the crawl space vapor barrier & ventilation. I've poured the floors in crawls spaces a few times in my career in retrospect. Normally, a 2-3" concrete floor over the vapor barrier eliminates the majority of the odor. Unfortunately, this isn't a very easy task either.

PS. I'd have to agree that Bob is one heck of nice, helpful guy here!

Last edited by jomama45; 07-26-2009 at 06:38 PM.
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:50 AM   #7
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Hi Jomama,

Thanks for your input. If you are interested, take a look at the Kryton Krystal T1 and T2 and barricote products, which I guess are similar to Zypex and Aquafin. It appears that the crystalline waterproofing works by going deep into the concrete walls, and a lot of people say it really does work. But since I have not used the product, yes, you might be right. I certainly agree that most surface waterproofing products from the interior do not work in the long run, but the crystalline stuff seems to really work.

I am not getting any water on the floor of my basement, but moisture gets through the walls, thus delaminating the concrete parging now on the concrete foundation wallls. It I properly put on crystallline waterproofing it would stop the hydrostatic pressure and prevent the parging from coming off next time and create a drier feel in the basement. Waterproofing the basement from the outside does not make financial sense as the problem is not severe enough to warrant such an invasive step It might be overkill but maybe I should consdier wire mesh on the walls before I reparge after applying the crystalline waterproofing, to ensure the stuff sticks to the walls. That is if I can remove all coatings down to the substrate, which is a big if. I'm also unsure of what product is best to reparge with that will not crumble with time.

Regarding the adjacent crawl spaces, running fans in the crawl spaces seems to be lessoning the musty smells coming from them. I really thought that by appllying the poly last year it would eliminate not worsen the musty smells. I wonder if I need a machine that sprays a fog mist to remove musty smell from the crawl spaces, to totally remove the musty smell. I think I might get in the crawl space, apply the crystalline to the cinder block foundation walls (unlike the basement foundation walls which are made of poured concrete) from the interior (in additon to applying the cystalline on the basement walls, regrade the exterior with a clay soil and then repair the poly in the crawl spaces to try to keep any air from excaping from lunder the poly.

I'm not sure if any of this will work, and I'm not ready to rip up the concrete outside of the house to waterproof, if I am not getting water in the house. But maybe I need to dig up any side of the exterior crawl spaces facing the garden, to put up a membrane to keep the crawl space dry, to cut down on the musty odor. Once again, extending the leaders further from the house, regrading the soil with a clean clay soil with plastic underneath for about 2 1/2 feet might be enough.


Bye for now, thanks again,

Ken
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Old 07-27-2009, 02:54 AM   #8
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parging concrete walls


Hi Jomama,

Thanks for your input. If you are interested, take a look at the Kryton Krystal T1 and T2 and barricote products, which I guess are similar to Zypex and Aquafin. It appears that the crystalline waterproofing works by going deep into the concrete walls, and a lot of people say it really does work. But since I have not used the product, yes, you might be right. I certainly agree that most surface waterproofing products from the interior do not work in the long run, but the crystalline stuff seems to really work.

I am not getting any water on the floor of my basement, but moisture gets through the walls, thus delaminating the concrete parging now on the concrete foundation wallls. It I properly put on crystalline waterproofing it would stop the hydrostatic pressure and prevent the parging from coming off next time and create a drier feel in the basement. Waterproofing the basement from the outside does not make financial sense as the problem is not severe enough to warrant such an invasive step It might be overkill but maybe I should consider wire mesh on the walls before I reparge after applying the crystalline waterproofing, to ensure the stuff sticks to the walls. That is if I can remove all coatings down to the substrate, which is a big if. I'm also unsure of what product is best to reparge with that will not crumble with time.

Regarding the adjacent crawl spaces, running fans in the crawl spaces seems to be lessening the musty smells coming from them. I really thought that by appllying the poly last year it would eliminate not worsen the musty smells. I wonder if I need a machine that sprays a fog mist to remove musty smell from the crawl spaces, to totally remove the musty smell. I think I might get in the crawl space, apply the crystalline to the cinder block foundation walls (unlike the basement foundation walls which are made of poured concrete) from the interior (in additon to applying the cystalline on the basement walls, regrade the exterior with a clay soil and then repair the poly in the crawl spaces to try to keep any air from excaping from lunder the poly.

I'm not sure if any of this will work, and I'm not ready to rip up the concrete outside of the house to waterproof, if I am not getting water in the house. But maybe I need to dig up any side of the exterior crawl spaces facing the garden, to put up a membrane to keep the crawl space dry, to cut down on the musty odor. Once again, extending the leaders further from the house, regrading the soil with a clean clay soil with plastic underneath for about 2 1/2 feet might be enough.


Bye for now, thanks again,

Ken

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