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Old 04-17-2010, 10:39 AM   #16
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Looking For A Sub $100 Circular Saw


There is no crime in making something that uses less expensive parts
So any lawsuit would be unfounded
Its simply a lower quality Mfg, there are tons of things like this on the market
So I would not consider it a rip-off either

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Old 04-17-2010, 11:28 AM   #17
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implied_warranty

and

http://www.google.com/search?client=...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

The thing is, of 20,000 people in prison in MD only 40 are there for fraud. Seems to me it should be the other way 'round.
For a low-risk, potentially high income enterprise, try fraud! Just ask Bernie!
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Old 04-17-2010, 12:46 PM   #18
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People want things to cost less, Mfg's have met that demand
One item has a 90 day warranty, the other has a 2 year warranty
Which do you buy ?
The "implied warranty" (actually real in this case) is that one will not last as long

Warranty on cars is a big deal...many Mfg's include so many fine print details & exclusions that almost make these worthless
Biggest $$ maker is the extended warranty on items purchased
Many stores sell these when you buy an item
What they don't tell you is that the warranty usually starts when you buy the item, NOT once the Mfg warranty has expired

Buyer beware
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Old 04-17-2010, 07:10 PM   #19
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Looking For A Sub $100 Circular Saw


Oh Gawd
I did not wish this thread would come to this but;
Look...I do not have an agenda
I'm not a "conspiracy theorist" per say
(though that can be a good selling point)
I took this job (as a Mod) to educate DIYers
I do/will not post anything of "opinion" unless I specifically say "IMO"
(or else I would lose this job)

I'm just saying due to my years in retail where I was told repeatedly that de-spec-ing does exist, the tales of my long term friends in the supply-side end of the biz, and my years investigating the "de-specing" of specific examples I've mentioned and investigated (including the cut-away of the aforementioned MAG guide plate), de-spec'ing is real, does exist, and is common in the "Big Box" stores

I'm just saying (as mentioned above) "Buyer Beware" and "You Get What You Pay For"


---Slick
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Old 04-17-2010, 07:53 PM   #20
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You've sold me, but how does the name brand supplier address the possible damage to their reputation? Or has that never come up?
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Old 04-18-2010, 03:13 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slickshift View Post
.......and my years investigating the "de-specing" of specific examples I've mentioned and investigated (including the cut-away of the aforementioned MAG guide plate), de-spec'ing is real, does exist...
Does this mean that the 423Mag guide plate from a HD is lower quality?
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Last edited by PaliBob; 04-18-2010 at 03:15 PM. Reason: sp
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Old 04-18-2010, 05:35 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaliBob
Does this mean that the 423Mag guide plate from a HD is lower quality?
(please excuse the exactness of this reply, but I think you and anyone reading this far deserve(s) it, and there are "other considerations" for me and the site if I reply too simply)

Full Disclosure:
This specific example was a few years ago, I'm sorry I don't recall the model number
-though I may be able to find it, they've been out long enough to have had a few generations of the same model so the point may be moot
The MAGS were relatively new at the time, so there were precious few models out
But that made comparing them rather easy

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaliBob
Does this mean that the 423Mag guide plate from a HD is lower quality?
At the time of my investigation, on the only MAG model(s) available (LH/RH) at the time, the answer is yes absolutely, the MAG guide plates on the H/D model(s) were of lower quality
And frighteningly so...on more than one level
Not only was the guide plate on the H/D version easily broken, it frankly had the look and feel (to me) of a poor quality cast aluminum
I was told it was by a few people that it was in fact cast aluminum, but admittedly metallurgy is not something I'm familiar enough with to make that call
It may have been poor quality magnesium for all I know
But at least it was truly of a poorer quality material than represented by the (and here's the second frightening thing) name and marketing of the product
If you know what I mean
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Old 04-18-2010, 05:53 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoyizit
You've sold me, but how does the name brand supplier address the possible damage to their reputation? Or has that never come up?
It comes up all the time

Basically, it comes down to lost sales
No manufacturing company wants that

Hypothetically, In the case of a company like P/C, let's say H/D sells 20% of circ. saws
H/D says "we'd like to carry your saws, but we want a lower cost than True Value gets
P/C says "OK, 2% or 3% is about the best we can do and still be profitable"
H/D says: "we want more"
P/C says: " we can't do that unless we de-spec and we don't want to do that"
H/D says: "OK, then take all your stuff back and we won't carry P/C"
Would you want to be the person going back to your share-holders saying you just lost 20% of your business because you refused to lower your costs for a customer base that wouldn't know the difference?

In reality:
H/D sells 20% (or more) of all lawnmowers
John Deere has a heck-of-a-name
H/D wants John Deere in their line-up
But J/D's price is too high for the average H/D consumer
Why not add an off-shore manufactured J/D mower for that market?
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Old 04-18-2010, 06:17 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoyizit
...but how does the name brand supplier address the possible damage to their reputation? Or has that never come up?
It comes up all the time

Perhaps this particular story has little value here, as it deals with non-tool things
But maybe not, as they are all "consumer goods" in the end

In a former life I used to sell (and train salespeople on selling) furniture, including mattresses
Inevitably the "Big Name" Mattress Companies would offer a $99 mattress
Of course, those products were complete crap
Those products were manufactured for the specific reasoning that some people only buy as to price, and those consumers need to be led into the store, and then educated and then "stepped up" to a decent product

Time after time one would be besieged by a $99 expecting consumer with a realistically $300 target saying "but it's a Sealy, ...how does the [name brand supplier] address the possible damage to their reputation?"

Sales my friend, sales...
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Old 04-18-2010, 07:56 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slickshift View Post
.....the MAG guide plates on the H/D model(s) were of lower quality........
That is quite an accusation without documentation. I hope you posted your findings on the DIY forum and that your claim of lower quality parts at HD was not just hearsay. You said your investigation was a few years ago but the only thing I found relevant in a search of the DIY Archives using your name was a link that led to a CPSC recall of about 196,000 PC Mag Saws in November of 2005. This was a National Recall not specific to HD and only referred to a problem with the blade guard sticking in the 'UP' position.
Circular saw recommendation?

Slick, did my search fail to find any your posts that referred to "guide plates on the H/D version" of the Mag Saws? I could have missed it, in which case I sincerely apologize. I still do not think that there is a distinct PC Saw model for HD that differs from the standard PC model number.

Here is the 2005 Recall:
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml06/06040.html

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Old 04-18-2010, 10:01 PM   #26
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Looking For A Sub $100 Circular Saw


I would spend a few extra $ for the Porter Cable saw, and have a functional , quality tool that will perform any task you ask, and will last even an avid DIY a lifetime. Compare by handling the various saws and you will see some of the things that separate the pro saws from the junk (which is often only a modest amount cheaper),pretty readily. For instance, compare these items on the PC to the cheaper stuff

The thick cast base plate, not a flimsy piece of stamped metal that will bend the first time you drop it or knock it off a saw horse.
The nice long supple cord, not a 5' cord with a cheap brittle outer casing that has all the flexibility of a piece of conduit when the temp is under 70 degrees; coupled with a cheap plug that will have a broken blade after you plug/unplug it 20 times.
The overall well balanced feel of the tool in your hands.
Then there is the stuff you can not readily see, but is there in a pro grade tool; thicker, better quality materials for the motor housing, quality bearings instead of bushings, superior trigger quality, higher quality machined gears and tighter tolereances for arbor runout(resulting in less blade wobble/vibration)
IMO, a quality tool makes any job much less frustrating.

Last edited by troubleseeker; 04-18-2010 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 05-16-2010, 11:19 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaliBob
I hope you posted your findings on the DIY forum and that your claim of lower quality parts at HD was not just hearsay.
I have mentioned what I've found in this regard before on different forums such as and including this one

I generally don't repeat hearsay
In the rare chance I do I always put an "I've heard" type disclaimer in the statement
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaliBob
Slick, did my search fail to find any your posts that referred to "guide plates on the H/D version" of the Mag Saws? I could have missed it, in which case I sincerely apologize. I still do not think that there is a distinct PC Saw model for HD that differs from the standard PC model number.
Well, I've mentioned the issues, but usually in more general terms
I do not recall if I've specifically mentioned guide plates here

IIRC this particular case was in fact one of those model #"123-XXX" vs "123D-XXX" deals
I remember it most because I had looked at both models more than once and didn't notice the slight difference at first
-in my defense, the L/H R/H designations (or lack of them) did sort of confuse that little difference a bit lol

True, it might not be "solid enough to hold up in court" as I didn't write it down, and conceivably and admittedly I could be confusing that particular case with some other of the many I found over the years
I didn't document many of my findings
...I wasn't intending to find the findings!
I was just comparing prices and specs on tools I needed or was considering
I had no ulterior motive in my searches...I wasn't writing down specifics
I just wanted to know what I was buying and why there seemed to be some price differences, and I was just being more thorough than most average DIY consumers and although wanting the best value, I was not being sold on price alone
I'm sure my retail experience with such model number mumbo-jumbo, product lines, branding (and bringing in cheaper product under the "brand") and de-spec'ing led to my more specific comparisons into the guts of the tools than most
For the most part the information is available...it's just the manufacturers and the retailers have no real reason to slap it on the box in big bold lettering*

And again, that doesn't mean a de-spec'd product isn't worth the price savings for many people (I realize that there's a difference between buying a saw to build a deck, and buying a saw that will survive a drop off a 32' ladder), and also not everything at Big Box stores is de-spec'd
But one should go into it with their eyes and ears wide open
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Old 05-16-2010, 11:27 PM   #28
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* A Good One:
There was a spray sealer that came in a few sizes
Specifically I'm talking about the 8oz (smaller can) and 12oz (larger can)
An independant retailer that carried the product "tipped me off" that the Big Box store didn't have the full amount of product in the cans
Of course I didn't believe him...that's silly...he's just "dissing the competition"
Well, my next trip to the Big Box, I had to wander over there and check
Sure enough, there were the 12oz cans at a decent discount over the "indy" shop
As I'm looking at the can, sure enough, right there on the bottom it said "8oz"
Well...they weren't lying about it...lol
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Old 05-17-2010, 12:31 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slickshift View Post
.....right there on the bottom it said "8oz"
Well...they weren't lying about it...lol
So you saw a can that was marked 12oz but only contained 8oz.

That is great documentation.

Can you post a pic
?
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Old 05-17-2010, 12:58 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaliBob
So you saw a can that was marked 12oz but only contained 8oz.
No...that's the thing...it was the larger sized can (12oz), but if you looked at the label and checked, it was marked "8oz"

I guess it's like the "pound" bags of coffee you see on the shelves that are now really only 12oz (and labeled as such, but we still think of them as a pound), or the bags of potato chips that used to have 6 or 8 oz of chips in them, but now have 4 or 5 oz...but the bag stayed the same size!

I am now sorry I didn't buy the can...it would have been worth it for the pic!

But like I said, I wasn't on a mission...it's just when I started looking into these things the more things I found
The next time I saw the guy I told him what I found and we had a chuckle over how clever it was

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