DIY Home Improvement Forum banner

Vinyl Replacement Windows

45K views 56 replies 20 participants last post by  mua2 
#1 ·
I have two estimates on the table for 10 new vinyl replacement windows. The prices are compareable. One contractor will install Great Lakes 4000 series double hung windows for $3340 and the other will install double hung windows from Vinyl Window Designs Ltd (Climate Shield) for $3600.

Is anyone familiar with either brand of windows? Could you offer a recommendation? Thanks!
 
#2 ·
Sorry, never heard of either, but you should compare warranties on the glass, the installation and the window frame. Make sure these companies have been around for a while. The warranty won't mean much if the company goes belly up.
Ron
 
#3 ·
I've never heard of either of them before. Vinyl windows of any kind aren't that great. Vinyl contracts and expands and glass doesn't. Two materials that should never be put together. The reason you chose to go with vinyl is...matching old windows, thought they would be low maintenance(they aren't), and they are inexpensive.
If you want a quality window, go with Anderson or Marvin. Even a Pella or a Jeld Wen would be better. Sure you pay more money. You can't expect to buy fine wine on a beer budget.
 
#10 ·
jaros, we up here use vinyl 90 % of the time. The glass is not physically attached to the vinyl.. and multiple rubber seals seal from glass to vinyl on both sides. I'm curious as to why you dislike them. Cheers

Does Canada get over 70 degrees for several days straight...I would still recommend a wood clad window over vinyl...."A" and Canadians live in there own world ... you get what you pay for... and the Canadian forgot to mention most MFG of vinyl windows goes out of business in several years so lifetime warranties only mean for as long as the vinyl company is in business and making windows....good luck if you ever need parts... another fact 65% of vinyl windows leak air in 4-5 years after they are installed most do not last more than 10 to 15 years if your lucky here in the states were the temps change 100 degrees then down to 50 degrees... I would recommend Marvin, Andersen, Eagle, good luck
 
#5 ·
90% of them are substandard. I have had few that didn't come warped, assembled wrong, operated poorly, broken fins, poor weatherstripping, or didn't last more than 10 years. They don't last, plain and simple. You can't take a material that contracts and expands and expect it to work from -40 to 110 without any problems.

I would compare vinyl windows to using pressure treated for your deck. Yes, it can be done, but why not spend the extra money to get something you can appreciate. Laminate flooring is another good example.
 
#13 · (Edited)
90% of them are substandard. I have had few that didn't come warped, assembled wrong, operated poorly, broken fins, poor weatherstripping, or didn't last more than 10 years. They don't last, plain and simple. You can't take a material that contracts and expands and expect it to work from -40 to 110 without any problems.

I would compare vinyl windows to using pressure treated for your deck. Yes, it can be done, but why not spend the extra money to get something you can appreciate. Laminate flooring is another good example.
Vinyl expansion rates are completely overblown and have been disseminated by other window manufacturers marketing non vinyl windows.

A lineal on a 6ft patio door will expand the thickness of a nickel when subjected to a + or - temperature swing of 50 degrees.


Sash frames don't cause most seal failures, spacers, sealants (their applications) and sheer stress do. Many competitors grossly exaggerate the expansion and contraction of UPVC. For example, if you had even a 6-foot UPVC frame manufactured at a temperature of 60 degrees F, It would only expand or contract about the thickness of a nickel at 110 degrees or 10 degrees. ALL windows are designed to allow independent expansion/contraction of glass and sash frame.

I have two estimates on the table for 10 new vinyl replacement windows. The prices are comparable. One contractor will install Great Lakes 4000 series double hung windows for $3340 and the other will install double hung windows from Vinyl Window Designs Ltd (Climate Shield) for $3600.

Is anyone familiar with either brand of windows? Could you offer a recommendation? Thanks!
Great Lakes 4000 series will qualify for the 2009 Energy Credit if you upgrade to the Maxuus glass package.
 
#9 ·
I stayed away from installing vinyl windows for years. As a contractor I would see house after house with issues. The two most prevalent were broken glass seals and broken balances. Many from companies that were no longer in business. It seemed every Tom, Dick and Harry were opening vinyl window companies back in the '70's and '80's. And most of them were crap.
I finally came accross a company as a result of one of my customers buying a house with 65 windows. The previous owner had replaced about 18 windows with vinyl back in 1989. I love it when the window companies put their name and made date in the spacer between the glass. This was in 1998 and all the windows were in great shape. I found out where they were and have been using them since. I haven't had one call back with these windows.
You just need to find the right company.
Ron
 
#14 ·
A 50 degree swing? Where do you live that has only a 50 degree swing? I have measured the expansion on a vinyl window and you can get quite a bit of movement. Wood won't move anywhere near to what vinyl moves. Wood does swell and shrink but a good window manufacturer uses a stable wood that doesn't do that. Take a 100 degree swing in a vinyl window, and then add the fact the window can't move because it's been nailed in place, restricted by trim, insulation, maybe drywall jambs. How can the window move? So the vinyl will bow, bend, and twist. Don't get me wrong, not all vinyl windows are garbage. There have just been tons of start up companies that have produced a cheap product and given all vinyl windows a bad name. Basically they've preyed upon unknowing homeowners who think they are getting a deal, when the fact of the matter is that it will end up costing them money in the end because their windows don't last. A significant cost of replacing a window is labor and if you have to do it twice, what did you save. For that matter, the cost of quality window would have to be twice the cost of the material and twice the labor to install to even out.
Now some homeowners have great vinyl windows. Great, but for those of us in the field that see hundreds of vinyl windows year in and year out, we see the vast quantities of cheap replacements and windows that are flooding the market and failing after two to three years.
I have to say there are good ones, but they are the minority and you will pay almost as much for them as you would a good wood clad or composite window.
 
#18 ·
You get 100 degree swings in Texas? We here see -50C in the winter and 40C as a topper in the summer. The nailing strips on Vinyl windows are the same idea as the nailing strip in Vinyl siding.. if your nailing them tight and nailing every hole your installing them wrong. Proper rough openings and nailing and insulating.. and a quality vinyl window will not warp! Now I can't speak to some of the manufacturers in the States, but here we have some, here today & gone tomorrow types.. that's just a matter of doing your homework.. and that's not unlike anything else out there. We also have manufacturers that have a 20 year record... just a matter of looking into it a bit. There will always be HO's out there looking for cheap and that's what they will get in both price and quality. Vinyl also will not be affected by moisture.. which in your neck of the woods is a bigger problem then here. And being maintenance free, they are more savings over time as they will not need refinishing as with wood.

Cheers
 
#19 ·
I'm originally from Minnesota, just south of Winnipeg. I'm sure it was the same temp swings that you have in Canada. Could be 100f in the summer down to -45f in the winter. I still don't understand what you are saying...you think the windows move in those nail slots? Some don't even have slots. And the manufacture ask for a bead of silicone around the outside. What about the ones with drywall returns and returns for wood trim?
 
#20 ·
The flanges on the vinyl windows cannot operate like vinyl siding, and they are to be nailed tight. The window itself cannot expand outward, only in the direction of the slot. In other words, how can the top and bottom move up and down. They can't because the slots are only left and right. What you stated doesn't make any sense at all. Furthermore, how would you ever square a window that was slightly out of square during installation.
 
#22 ·
From Jen weld:
Fastener heads must be flush. Do not dent nailing fin.

From Supreme:
Apply a caulking bead (2) to exterior of the rough opening to seal
against the nailing fin (3).
Remove shipping blocks (4)
(not installation blocks) and insert the window
into the rough opening.
Tack the window at two corners 4" from the
corner and ensure that the window is square, plumb and level
according to the outside frame (5), NOT squared using the jamb
extension (8).
Finish nailing the window in, placing nails (6) in the centre of the slot,
every second slot, keeping 4" away from the corners, do not tighten
the nail, just snug as to allow for expansion and contraction.

It is important to use the correct nail type, something with a large and
flat head ie:roofing nails, a minimum 1 1/2" length.
Insulate (7) LOOSELY with fibreglass or non-expanding foam, making
sure not to bow the frame or jamb extension.

Cheers
 
#23 ·
You still fail to recognize that the window cannot expand perpendicular to the nailing fin, only horizontally. This means that the window will start to be under a lot of stress when there is heating and cooling. When you nail vinyl siding loosely you can slide a dime behind the head. Not so with a vinyl window. They are nailed firmly into the silicone. It cannot and will not move uninhibited. Furthermore, you still have not addressed the problem with the jamb receivers. Dimpling the flange is not the equivalent of nailing tight. You are to nail tight but not as to compromise the nailing flange.
This puts a lot of stress on the windows and the vinyl. You're not going to read about that from a vinyl window manufacturer because they are trying to sell you a window. Material selection for any product is very important and although I like vinyl for its low maintenance, its stability makes it a poor choice for a structural type application.
The main reason why vinyl companies don't want expanding foam is because of the fear of bowing the jambs, something to be concerned about with any fenestration. Some companies do allow a minimal expanding foam.
 
#24 ·
the thing with with vinyl is that it is ,well plastic, nailing the relatively thin nailing flanges[as josh says tight not mashed in] doesn't affect the rest of the relativity stronger frame extrusion as long as it shimed properly to a large extent.Vinyl siding is at least 12' long and at the most will travel only 1/2 the length of the nail slot.Windows frame component are usually much shorter so total expansion will be less.Very long or dark colored vinyl window frames can be a problem tho in those situations i would opt for a clad or fiberglass frame unit
 
#25 ·
Well I don't know what else to add, other then to reiterate that Mine (All weather Windows) were originally installed in 1992. I've had no problem with them. They do have returns. Most of the housing here have Vinyl, and I've not heard of anyone here having issues with expansion and contraction.

Cheers
 
#27 · (Edited)
I have two estimates on the table for 10 new vinyl replacement windows. The prices are comparable. One contractor will install Great Lakes 4000 series double hung windows for $3340 and the other will install double hung windows from Vinyl Window Designs Ltd (Climate Shield) for $3600.

Is anyone familiar with either brand of windows? Could you offer a recommendation? Thanks!
The Plygem Great Lakes 4000 is a decent window. Make sure you upgrade to the Maxuus glass package like Hartford said.

4000 Double Hung with Maxuus (Double Low E Argon)
U-factor = .30
SHGC = .27
without Maxuss Glass
U-factor = .31
SHGC = .26

The tax credits have been converted to 30% of the cost of the windows up to $1500. A $5000 purchase will get you the maximum $1500 credit. (The previous $200 cap on windows has been removed.

The new standards are that the windows have to have a minimum NFRC U-Factor of .30 and a minimum NFRC Solar Heat Gain Coefficient of .30

Vinyl is a durable product, it has stood the test of time. (Over twenty years for most the large manufacturers)

The expansion on vinyl is so minimal, you will most likely never, never, I mean, NEVER see a problem because of this. Unless you live in Arizona and put the windows facing south west, no cover and paint the windows bronze. You might see the breakdown of the vinyl integrity. You have to get the window to 160 for the PVC to become pliable.

I've seen vinyl windows I put in 25 years ago (that have been washed regularly) that look and operate almost like the day I installed them. Not all vinyl windows will though.
The installation methods, the size of the window, the type of the window, the counterbalances used in the window (if double hung) and the success of the spacer system all have their share to do with the longevity of the window.

Vinyl windows have a better performance. Better U-factors,Better DP Ratings,Better Warranty then most wood windows. You can check check for yourself at the NFRC website. Here is a link
http://cpd.nfrc.org/search/cpd/cpd_search_default.aspx?type=W

Also replacement windows do not come with a nailing fin. Nailing fins are usually for new construction windows.

Make sure you check references of the company and go see a few jobs done by the installers.

Good Luck with your purchase :)
 
#31 · (Edited)
The Plygem Great Lakes 4000 is a decent window. Make sure you upgrade to the Maxuus glass package like Hartford said.

4000 Double Hung with Maxuus (Double Low E Argon)
U-factor = .30
SHGC = .27
without Maxuss Glass
U-factor = .31
SHGC = .26

The tax credits have been converted to 30% of the cost of the windows up to $1500. A $5000 purchase will get you the maximum $1500 credit. (The previous $200 cap on windows has been removed.

The new standards are that the windows have to have a minimum NFRC U-Factor of .30 and a minimum NFRC Solar Heat Gain Coefficient of .30

Vinyl is a durable product, it has stood the test of time. (Over twenty years for most the large manufacturers)

The expansion on vinyl is so minimal, you will most likely never, never, I mean, NEVER see a problem because of this. Unless you live in Arizona and put the windows facing south west, no cover and paint the windows bronze. You might see the breakdown of the vinyl integrity. You have to get the window to 160 for the PVC to become pliable.

I've seen vinyl windows I put in 25 years ago (that have been washed regularly) that look and operate almost like the day I installed them. Not all vinyl windows will though.
The installation methods, the size of the window, the type of the window, the counterbalances used in the window (if double hung) and the success of the spacer system all have their share to do with the longevity of the window.

Vinyl windows have a better performance. Better U-factors,Better DP Ratings,Better Warranty then most wood windows. You can check check for yourself at the NFRC website. Here is a link
http://cpd.nfrc.org/search/cpd/cpd_search_default.aspx?type=W

Also replacement windows do not come with a nailing fin. Nailing fins are usually for new construction windows.

Make sure you check references of the company and go see a few jobs done by the installers.

Good Luck with your purchase :)
Ditto. Well put. The guy with one post makes the most informed comment of this entire thread.
 
#28 ·
I agree that 90% of vinyl windows are garbage.........on the same note 90% of wood windows are also garbage. Come to think of it, 90% of the stuff at Wal-Mart is garbage and 90% of the food at your supermarket is not healthy for you. I've installed vinyl windows for the past 15 years and I've learned the hard way the true cost of installing cheap windows (failure & warranty nightmares). Now I install good vinyl windows that are mostly triple pane and would not think of installing a wood product regardless of how it's clad.

my 2 cents
 
#30 ·
there is a market for vinyl... for those who work at burger king or McDonalds...with low income....the saying goes...you get what you pay for ... most salesmen that sell vinyl have a gimic pitch... I sell vinyl but explain to the customer the clear differences


Emiliy i dont think i would ever buy windows from you with that attitude:no:
 
#35 ·
Tom,
THe reason I say that is my cusotmers are always the ones who loose out in the end, not me. My cusotmers have had vinyl windows stress crack after a year they were installed for my customers and vinyl company company says too bad: 14 of 26 windows had sashes that the glass cracked, the company says pound salt? After you face the music time and time again...and you hear others say for fourty dollars to sixty dollars more I could have had an ANdersen Windows or Marvin, you'd understand my position more. Or AWS a division of Hurd goes out of business and you have warranty issues, with glass fogging up patio door panels and window sashes...the customers expect better performance from windows then 3 years. I also have worked several home shows and had customers almost crying because their contractor who just build this 1/2 million home for them 4 years ago used vinyl windows, now need new windows...They had ANdersen and Pella's in their old home, with no problems, the vinyl company just went out of business... and the Contractor recommedned them...

I just measured a house full (26 windows in all)of 1960 Andersen Casements, customer could go cheap and buy vinyl I did ask the cusotmer how long they plan on living there, they did not know. But, their reply to me was, I'll loose glass space be limited on options, warranties are good as the vinyl company is in business, customer said why... I want to go with the best Andersen WIndows these lasted 49 years...there is no rott, they are primed wood casements, some hardware is bad, which andersen still can get, and they single pane with an RGS panels, but most looked good, but hey are not energy efficient... Plus with Todays ANdersen Window "A" (made of fibex which will never rott)Series windows I could get them the option of 10 colors exterior and 10 pre stained options on the inside, plus the customer also qualifies for the new tax rebates with Andersen's new SMart Sun glass. If the customer sell the the house in several years, the warranty will transfer to the new home owner 20/10 transferable warranty
-adding resale value to the home-

There is a market for vinyl, but after you show the cusotmer what they are purchasing is very important why waste your money on plastic...if you buy a Marvin or an Andersen you're getting the one of the best windows out there, and you know the company will be around for along time, you can get service, parts and a piece of mind...and you never have too 2nd guess your self... sorry for the attitude, but wood windows come first then cheap vinyl windows that you hope the customer never asks for service or parts or needs warranty contact info..
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top