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Old 11-20-2012, 08:17 PM   #31
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This is part of the reason why people DIY when they shouldn't


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I'm not denying a business P&O. P&O should be in your labor rate, not a separate charge. I've had people quote me saying my labor is $X.xx and P&O is 15% of the overall job. I don't think so.

As for materials, there never would be back charges for ill timed work since you'd be the one supplying the material list. You give me a wrong list you're only delaying yourself.
No, you said you don't pay P&O- You said you'd keep it.
And if you're supplying materials- you make the list- that's the way its done on a labor only contract or I walk. You don't get my estimating skills for free.

As a plumbing contractor, I am supplying you a service, it will have P&O built into the price. You won't know my hourly rate or what I pay for labor or what I paid for material. All you'll get is a bill stating what to pay. Thats all you need.
If you don't like my quote, we can talk about it. But once you sign, you pay the price I quoted unless the scope of work changes

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Old 11-20-2012, 08:21 PM   #32
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This is part of the reason why people DIY when they shouldn't


I don't quote anything but a complete job----Do you actually find legitimate contractors that will break out materials?

I think you are making this up---have you ever actually hired a contractor?
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:23 PM   #33
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This is part of the reason why people DIY when they shouldn't


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That's why I only take quotes in the form of labor and materials separated. If I like your labor quote for the job, I'll offer you the job and supply my own material (if I can get it cheaper). If you won't let me supply materials, have a good day.

Like I said, I'm a tough person to work for but I pay cash. You'd be shocked at the quality of people I've gotten to work on my house under my terms.

The economy makes people do funny things (i.e. work for less), and if you (the homeowner) have the green to put into the economy, you'll have all the skilled labor you could ever need and more to get a quality job at an affordable price.
If you have the green- then pay an honest price........
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:26 PM   #34
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This is part of the reason why people DIY when they shouldn't


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No, you said you don't pay P&O- You said you'd keep it.
And if you're supplying materials- you make the list- that's the way its done on a labor only contract or I walk. You don't get my estimating skills for free.
I've never done it that way.

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As a plumbing contractor, I am supplying you a service, it will have P&O built into the price. You won't know my hourly rate or what I pay for labor or what I paid for material. All you'll get is a bill stating what to pay. Thats all you need.
If you don't like my quote, we can talk about it. But once you sign, you pay the price I quoted unless the scope of work changes
I would never sign it.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:29 PM   #35
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This is part of the reason why people DIY when they shouldn't


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Originally Posted by Squished View Post
That's why I only take quotes in the form of labor and materials separated. If I like your labor quote for the job, I'll offer you the job and supply my own material (if I can get it cheaper). If you won't let me supply materials, have a good day.

Like I said, I'm a tough person to work for but I pay cash. You'd be shocked at the quality of people I've gotten to work on my house under my terms.

The economy makes people do funny things (i.e. work for less), and if you (the homeowner) have the green to put into the economy, you'll have all the skilled labor you could ever need and more to get a quality job at an affordable price.
I don't break down my labor. And cash is the same as a check to me. No discount for paying in cash.

Maybe you would be shocked at the quality you didn't get, and don't realize you didn't get it.

Good economy or bad economy, cash money for discount labor doesn't mean your getting quality.

You can supply the material. then I will give a labor only quote, at a much high then normal labor rate. You don't like that price. Thats fine, get someone else.
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Old 11-20-2012, 08:44 PM   #36
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This is part of the reason why people DIY when they shouldn't


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I guess in Taxachusetts cash is king, cash always warrants a discount.

I would love for you to come by and educate me on the quality I didn't get.

My carpenter for example in my recent renovation is one of the most well respected carpenters/kitchen people in the area. he was $15 more/hour than any other I interviewed. His quality and attention to detail from his references spoke for themselves and I was happy to pay his asking price for labor. I supplied all materials.

He's been on the job for 5 weeks, do the math on what I could have saved had I gone with the lower guy.

Honest people get an honest price and they get it in cash.
In my neck of the woods- a handshake and reputation is king.....they speak louder then cash
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:07 PM   #37
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This is part of the reason why people DIY when they shouldn't


The only thing I install supplied by you is light fixtures and ceiling fans.
I went that route one time and got burned, waiting for the guy to show up with the wire I needed.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:22 PM   #38
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when I downsized and had just me and a helper I did let people supply material. In the form of they set up a charge account and I charged to it. I knew the local lumber yards and my customers knew me and my reputation.
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Old 11-20-2012, 09:50 PM   #39
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when I downsized and had just me and a helper I did let people supply material. In the form of they set up a charge account and I charged to it. I knew the local lumber yards and my customers knew me and my reputation.
Same here when it comes to fixtures. I send them to my supply house showroom and I'll honor the warranty- can't stand installing box store plumbing products. But that's a whole 'nother story....
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Old 11-20-2012, 11:54 PM   #40
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This is part of the reason why people DIY when they shouldn't


Lots of more really good points here.

To explain why we have to pay for an estimate is that it is a fema flood map requirement for a detailed estimate to ensure that you are not going over 1/2 the cost of the house or then you have to raise the house and do mitigation yadda yadda. It has nothing to do with insurance etc but a requirement for the county.

I would never expect to not have to pay for one of these for the level of detail that the government requires. Time is money and my time is not free and neither should yours be, especially for this type of estimate. We are talking a whole house rebuild here. If it were for a replacing a light fixture then I might balk. I just can't keep paying for them.

As for the materials, I know that people don't like like homeowner to provide them and and I understand why, I've heard and read the horror stories. When it comes to fixures and plumbing etc I am more than happy to go the allowance route or use their suppliers and not box stores. What I am absolutely NOT going to do is pay 22 dollars for a 4x12 board of everyday sheetrock that I can get from the same supplier that they use, for 9.50

There can never be a justification for that kind of markup on this type of material. I used the sheetrock as an example. The markup on the insulation is even worse, same supplier same delivery fees (free).

I understand that there is a markup, you have to order it, or hold it in inventory etc, or, in some cases go get it, but it should be reasonable.

If you have to drive to Canada to get something then - yup I would understand that kind of mark up just for the pita factor (and yes I would expect to pay for your time and gas etc) but not on items that are available to be delivered next day from the same place you get them, that are general everyday construction items.

Let me propose this, If you had to get a base model car delivered would you pay someone double what the car costs from the chevy dealer? I think you would not, for me it is similar. If I am totally missing something here then please educate me (but use small words lol)

With respects to proffit, I would never want a breakdown between labour or profit, I'm not going to tell you how much I make a year why should you tell me? I understand that quality costs money and have no issue paying for it.

In getting the estimates that we had to that included materials allowed me to see some of this stuff. And I really wanted to understand this.

As for the no shows, suddenly I have contractors coming out of the woodwork so some forward movement there.

Again thanks for all your responses and thanks for keeping it civil.
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Old 11-21-2012, 12:06 AM   #41
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This is part of the reason why people DIY when they shouldn't


for many the justification for the mark-up is - charge what they can get. In the real world you are not buying the sum of the parts but a finished product so a set of cabinets is not equal to the price of material and labour it is equal to whatever I can get for it.
Now I could never do that but it is what is done in every industry.

I managed a lumber yard for a while and some stuff was marked up 10%, other stuff %200 or more.
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:32 AM   #42
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This is part of the reason why people DIY when they shouldn't


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Originally Posted by Squished View Post
I guess in Taxachusetts cash is king, cash always warrants a discount.

I would love for you to come by and educate me on the quality I didn't get.

My carpenter for example in my recent renovation is one of the most well respected carpenters/kitchen people in the area. he was $15 more/hour than any other I interviewed. His quality and attention to detail from his references spoke for themselves and I was happy to pay his asking price for labor. I supplied all materials.

He's been on the job for 5 weeks, do the math on what I could have saved had I gone with the lower guy.

Honest people get an honest price and they get it in cash.
You didn't haggle that carpenters price. One guy out of how many.

As fr the quality you didn't get from others. Wait until everything is done. And you slowly find out what you didn't get.
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:51 AM   #43
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This is part of the reason why people DIY when they shouldn't


Quote:
Originally Posted by Squished View Post
I guess in Taxachusetts cash is king, cash always warrants a discount.

I would love for you to come by and educate me on the quality I didn't get.

My carpenter for example in my recent renovation is one of the most well respected carpenters/kitchen people in the area. he was $15 more/hour than any other I interviewed. His quality and attention to detail from his references spoke for themselves and I was happy to pay his asking price for labor. I supplied all materials.

He's been on the job for 5 weeks, do the math on what I could have saved had I gone with the lower guy.

Honest people get an honest price and they get it in cash.

and all these"contractors" are quoting their hourly rates???

I don't believe that
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Old 11-21-2012, 04:58 AM   #44
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Squish--I just don't believe this ----not a bit.
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Old 11-21-2012, 05:54 AM   #45
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You may think you are running a great show by nickeling and diming the workers and mandating that they make no profit or cover the overhead that all tradesmen have---

But I would be astonished if they aren't ignoring errors made but yourself or other workers----using less than ideal products because you aren't going to cover the costs involved with getting the right stuff.

I once worked for a man who had a similar attitude as you ----I just shut up and watched as his other subs buried subpar work because they would have to eat the expense of doing it right---

Every tradesman makes mistakes and needs to tear out work and re do it---this is part of overhead---and profit----to many mistakes and there is no profit---but a margin of some sort must be in every job----

If that margin does not exist----errors must be left and buried.

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