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Old 05-10-2011, 06:44 PM   #16
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No sheer strength in Garage walls


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You don't need an X - one 1x4 angled down from each corner will do.

Ah, I get the staggered stud thing now, 2x4's offset on the 2x6 sill. You could Let in (recess) both the existing and new studs - but that would cut into the studs to far.

Again, from me and others - why the staggered studs?

This is not a bad idea. Even some sort of metal bracket that goes over the studs or between them (if I do staggered stud). A bracket or 1x4 that creates a triangle shape in the corner from one wall to another.

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Old 05-10-2011, 06:48 PM   #17
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No sheer strength in Garage walls


What I mean by flimsy, shaky, or not strong is that you can grab a 2x4 about anywhere and start vibrating it hard with your hand and it will shimmer that effect all the way around till the garage doors are shaking. So it's like there is no rigidity in the corners. Any vibration can just carry all around the structure. I mean is there any reason not to take off the siding and put 1/2 or 3/4" OSB all around the outside. Wouldn't this greatly help the mass and strength of the structure? As well as put in some corner bracing?
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Old 05-10-2011, 06:50 PM   #18
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No sheer strength in Garage walls


Also I wanted someone to cofirm or deny..
Isn't normally the process 2x4 framing ----> OSB ----> Tyvek/Typar ---->siding ?
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:09 PM   #19
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No sheer strength in Garage walls


I see no “1/4 siding/sheeting (cementboard)”.

I see nothing out of the ordinary with the construction, not high end either.

You mentioned nothing in your OP about turning this into a stealth fab shop.

I don’t know how you expect to get useful answers with partial and incomplete questions.
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:12 PM   #20
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No sheer strength in Garage walls


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Originally Posted by Avadon View Post
Also I wanted someone to cofirm or deny..
Isn't normally the process 2x4 framing ----> OSB ----> Tyvek/Typar ---->siding ?
Not if the siding is a sheet product on a detached garage.
You can add the osb though.
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:44 PM   #21
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No sheer strength in Garage walls


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Originally Posted by kwikfishron View Post
I see no “1/4 siding/sheeting (cementboard)”.

I see nothing out of the ordinary with the construction, not high end either.

You mentioned nothing in your OP about turning this into a stealth fab shop.

I don’t know how you expect to get useful answers with partial and incomplete questions.

Ahh yah I mentioned the whole blacksmith/metalshop on other posts. All the exterior paneling on the ATTACHED garage is 1/4 sheet. I think it's some kind of sheeting with cement in it for fire rating.. or something like that. I'm not sure what the correct term is but they got it at lowes for about 23$ a sheet. You can see the place where it isn't painted.. it's that tan stuff.
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Old 05-10-2011, 07:46 PM   #22
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No sheer strength in Garage walls


I guess the issue is just that the 1/4" hardiboard siding (or whatever it's called) just doesn't do much of anything for adding a great deal of rigidity to the structure and I need a good bit of exterior rigidity so I can use all of that 2x6 footer for creating as much STC value as I can.
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Old 05-10-2011, 10:26 PM   #23
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No sheer strength in Garage walls


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Originally Posted by Avadon

This is not a bad idea. Even some sort of metal bracket that goes over the studs or between them (if I do staggered stud). A bracket or 1x4 that creates a triangle shape in the corner from one wall to another.
Build your staggered wall and put the angled braces in that wall. If you put the braces on the inside of the new wall you can them nail them to the existing wall.
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:08 PM   #24
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No sheer strength in Garage walls


It sounds like/looks like the siding is, in fact, a sheet good product. If that the case, and you can grab a stud and shake it, then it sounds like the siding is only fastened at the top and bottom of the studs, maybe even only to the top & bottom plates. Push on the siding at mid-height of the stud. Does the stud push out with it at all? if not, it just sounds like you need to nail it. I can;t give you the exact nailing requirements, but 18" o/c would probably be enough and you can probably get away with just doing the corners. If it's hardi-plank, you may have to pre-drill...not sure.

If that doesn't work, you can try gauge metal straps going from top plate to bottom plate. That would impinge on the interior too much. Make sure you start at a stud location and end at a stud location and try to keep the straps somewhere around 45 degree angle.

As far as the sound goes, try a test if you haven't already. The living room couch in my house is only 15' from the garage door and you can watch TV while I grind or even use a gas-fired welder in the garage. You can still hear it, but it's not as bad as you would think. Now, I have cellulose insulation, which helps, and that may be something you might want to look into, but I would have thought that the noise from the welder would have boomed through the steel entry door, but it didn't. You'll have to determine how much sound is and is not acceptable and proceed accordingly.
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Old 05-11-2011, 08:12 AM   #25
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No sheer strength in Garage walls


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It sounds like/looks like the siding is, in fact, a sheet good product. If that the case, and you can grab a stud and shake it, then it sounds like the siding is only fastened at the top and bottom of the studs, maybe even only to the top & bottom plates. Push on the siding at mid-height of the stud. Does the stud push out with it at all? if not, it just sounds like you need to nail it. I can;t give you the exact nailing requirements, but 18" o/c would probably be enough and you can probably get away with just doing the corners. If it's hardi-plank, you may have to pre-drill...not sure.

If that doesn't work, you can try gauge metal straps going from top plate to bottom plate. That would impinge on the interior too much. Make sure you start at a stud location and end at a stud location and try to keep the straps somewhere around 45 degree angle.

As far as the sound goes, try a test if you haven't already. The living room couch in my house is only 15' from the garage door and you can watch TV while I grind or even use a gas-fired welder in the garage. You can still hear it, but it's not as bad as you would think. Now, I have cellulose insulation, which helps, and that may be something you might want to look into, but I would have thought that the noise from the welder would have boomed through the steel entry door, but it didn't. You'll have to determine how much sound is and is not acceptable and proceed accordingly.

I'll check today to see of it's nailed enough. I prefer the exterior star drive screws. Expensive but so worth it. All the nails have slightly popped around the garage and most of the house. I would have to imagine that 1/4 sheeting to be a decent fire product/siding product but as far as an only exterior I would have to believe that is minimum code. I watched 5 garage building videos on youtube yesterday and they all went from 2x4 studding to OSB or plywood, and then they Tyvek wrapped and then they went on to whatever their choice of siding was. You must just get a lot more solid exterior doing it this way. And then if you feel you still need something, that metal strapping. Oh Well re-sheeting everything is not the end of the world. I'll just do one wall at a time. I don't know if i'll put the original siding backup or not. I guess it would save me a lot of money and it's already cut to fit.
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Old 05-11-2011, 12:27 PM   #26
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No sheer strength in Garage walls


Screws have less capacity than nails, but the loads are small, so screws should be fine. If you are looking for a fire rating you will need to sheetrock the interior. The stud/OSB/tyvek/siding system is typical, but the component that provides any significant lateral stability is the OSB sheet (the siding will provide a little bit of stability, but it would be provided by a combination of the siding and the studs bending and is not something that is worth taking into account). If your siding is, in fact, in sheets, then it should be ok for use as a shear panel. It may only be 1/4" thick, and if you were to start over 1/2" OSB would be the right material to use (with tyvek & siding on top of the OSB). However, a 4'x8' sheet 1/4" thick has substantial shear capacity when compared to the winds loads on your garage. If I am right and the the siding panels are not properly nailed, then you can nail/screw one panel and see how much of a difference it will make.
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Old 05-11-2011, 12:48 PM   #27
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No sheer strength in Garage walls


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Screws have less capacity than nails, but the loads are small, so screws should be fine. If you are looking for a fire rating you will need to sheetrock the interior. The stud/OSB/tyvek/siding system is typical, but the component that provides any significant lateral stability is the OSB sheet (the siding will provide a little bit of stability, but it would be provided by a combination of the siding and the studs bending and is not something that is worth taking into account). If your siding is, in fact, in sheets, then it should be ok for use as a shear panel. It may only be 1/4" thick, and if you were to start over 1/2" OSB would be the right material to use (with tyvek & siding on top of the OSB). However, a 4'x8' sheet 1/4" thick has substantial shear capacity when compared to the winds loads on your garage. If I am right and the the siding panels are not properly nailed, then you can nail/screw one panel and see how much of a difference it will make.

Went a did a more thorough inspection. It's fairly well nailed but certainly not as tight as screws would be. Mostly it's the far wall.. the wall opposite the side that is attached to the house that is weak/flimsy. The footer is bolted down very tight (I tightented those anchors) and I also put lots of screws to make sure the 2x4 footer is extremely well bonded to the 2x6 that sits on the concrete block perimeter. Maybe that wall is just weak because it's the far wall and there is no catwalks across the trusses to connect the side near the house with the side that is furthest from the house?

I think for what I am going to do, taking down the siding and putting up the OSB is the right thing to do. I guess you can't blame people for housewrapping/tvyek the studded wall and then going right to sheeting. After all most people just put cars in their garages so they don't need an industrial structure.

Is there any instructions you know of for putting up OSB. Orientation and what not?

Thanks for the great help!
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Old 05-11-2011, 02:23 PM   #28
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No sheer strength in Garage walls


The siding/sheathing on the garage is rated for shear flow. You are fine in that regards; http://www.apawood.org/level_b.cfm?content=prd_sid_main The 1/4" you are looking at is the under-lap edge of the sheet at the corner, this is normal as it gets it's shear value from the thinnest layer-- under-laps, channel grooves with full thickness of 9/16-5/8". This (full wall) is way more structural than adding any metal straps, flat,or metal let-in braces which are supposedly temporary only. The wood diagonal let-ins meet minimum code but are also weaker than full-wall or just corner panel sheathing; http://bct.nrc.umass.edu/index.php/p...n-the-outside/

To help stop noise, add 3/4" OSB for density after adding rock wool insulation to the cavities- leave no gaps or voids: The "biggest loser" in fiberglass insulation.... Use caulking or green glue on all connections for air-tight; http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...wall-approach/

The whole wall is shaky- not the studs to sheathing, because the top plate is not anchored to the garage ceiling. Add a 2x4 across the ceiling joists/rafter ties to stabilize it every 4' lineally. BTW- you are lacking lateral resistance (front/back push), not shear (end wall push): http://www.awc.org/pdf/WFCM_90-B-Guide.pdf Notice the nailing spacing, size, etc.

Check your location for wind resistance, if worried or want to exceed minimum Code for your area; http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...001_par004.htm

The orientation of OSB makes no difference for sheathing walls. Remember to leave a gap all around, and with any engineered product- don't get it wet; http://osbguide.tecotested.com/pdfs/en/el812.pdf

Gary
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Old 05-11-2011, 04:05 PM   #29
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No sheer strength in Garage walls


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The siding/sheathing on the garage is rated for shear flow. You are fine in that regards; http://www.apawood.org/level_b.cfm?content=prd_sid_main The 1/4" you are looking at is the under-lap edge of the sheet at the corner, this is normal as it gets it's shear value from the thinnest layer-- under-laps, channel grooves with full thickness of 9/16-5/8". This (full wall) is way more structural than adding any metal straps, flat,or metal let-in braces which are supposedly temporary only. The wood diagonal let-ins meet minimum code but are also weaker than full-wall or just corner panel sheathing; http://bct.nrc.umass.edu/index.php/p...n-the-outside/

To help stop noise, add 3/4" OSB for density after adding rock wool insulation to the cavities- leave no gaps or voids: The "biggest loser" in fiberglass insulation.... Use caulking or green glue on all connections for air-tight; http://www.buildingscience.com/docum...wall-approach/

The whole wall is shaky- not the studs to sheathing, because the top plate is not anchored to the garage ceiling. Add a 2x4 across the ceiling joists/rafter ties to stabilize it every 4' lineally. BTW- you are lacking lateral resistance (front/back push), not shear (end wall push): http://www.awc.org/pdf/WFCM_90-B-Guide.pdf Notice the nailing spacing, size, etc.

Check your location for wind resistance, if worried or want to exceed minimum Code for your area; http://publicecodes.citation.com/ico...001_par004.htm

The orientation of OSB makes no difference for sheathing walls. Remember to leave a gap all around, and with any engineered product- don't get it wet; http://osbguide.tecotested.com/pdfs/en/el812.pdf

Gary

Thanks for the powerfully awesome links. What do you mean by leaving gaps all around? Shouldn't the osb sheating, whether inside or out be butted tight and always the ends landing on a stud? I did drill through a middle portion of the sheeting and measured my drill bit penetration. It is indeed 1/4" all around. I'm going to study your links thoroughly tonight. That will arm me with a lot of information. Like your idea about anchoring the wall to the ceiling joists and anchoring all the joists together all the way back to the wall that is attached to the house. Do I need to run wood front and back (from the garage doors to the back of the garage) or don't the trusses provide enough strength there.

Thanks for all this good information and food for thought.
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Old 05-11-2011, 04:53 PM   #30
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No sheer strength in Garage walls


Would there be any sound and thermal gain from adding rigid foam insulation to the exterior while I got the siding off. Like do studs--->OSB 1/2"-->rigid foam--->tyvek--->siding Is that worth doing and would that be the correct order?

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