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Old 04-27-2009, 07:35 PM   #16
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Muratic acid on aluminum clad windows


C'mon now nap, your allright, don't be taking your ball & going home now. Probably the most important point that Tscar was making is that it isn't the BEST practice. No doubt muratic will clean the brick, but at what cost/side effects? Many of todays brick have somewhat delicate faces that can be destroyed by muratic, much less windows, glass, etc... Quite honestly, I don't think it would effect Tscar, NJ Brickie, or myself one bit if the OP destroyed his masonry work, but take it from us, we've seen the damages first hand through the years. I also just noticed the OP's ratio of 1:1 for the muratic, definately flirting with disaster. I believe muriatic recommends starting at 20:1, & increasing to as much as 10:1 if necessary. Not my recommendation, but def. don't go 1:1 if you dont listen to us.

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Old 04-27-2009, 08:55 PM   #17
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Muratic acid on aluminum clad windows


I prefer to call it discussion, and I have been discussing this very issue for 20 years with Architects, General Contractors, and Masons, to say nothing of chemical manufacturers. You either did not read it thoroughly, or did not completely understand what they are saying. All proprietary new construction masonry cleaners contain acid. They also contain buffers and other chemicals to reduce or eliminate some of the hazards of doing so.

Hansen brick recommends the use of ProSoCo proprietary cleaning products, as do most brick manufacturers (or equal). None recommend the use of unbuffered muriatic acid.

From The Brick Institute of America, tech note 23, "Identifying Stains":

"Some brick develop yellow or green salt deposits
as shown in Photos 7 (yellow) and 8 (green)
when they come in contact with water or unbuffered
hydrochloric (muriatic) acid. These stains
are usually vanadium salts. They may be found
on red, buff or white brick; however, they are more
conspicuous on lighter-colored brick."

"Unbuffered hydrochloric (muriatic) acid should not
be used to clean tan, brown, black or gray brick."

From The Brick Institute of America, tech note 20, "Cleaning Brickwork":

"Do not use unbuffered muriatic acid"


Both from bia.org, Technical notes.


Please note that this information is designed for contractors. Homeowners should not even consider using muriatic acid for cleaning anything. It is a dangerous material to mess around with.
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Old 04-28-2009, 07:39 AM   #18
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Muratic acid on aluminum clad windows


..."The staining they discuss is from the contaminants in muriatic acid."
Tscarborough

Not sure I buy that...if the 'stains' they are referring to are vanadium salts, then these metals are in the brick, not the muriatic. And even though muriatic may be derived from the steel pickling industry, one cannot conclude that the muriatic is 'contaminated' and therefore causing the stains.

And, pray tell, what contaminants are in hydrochloric acid solutions? I'll also suggest that proprietary products used to clean brick, (and someone mentioned ProSoCo products), are formulated acidic products that may or may not contain hydrochloric acid and indeed are the products suggested to clean brick because of their track record for safety. In other words they do the same job - but in a 'better' fashion, not that they're more effective than muriatic, just safer.

I think they brick associations put their own interpretation and meaning to the word "unbuffered". In the chemical sense, a buffering agent maintains a given pH level no matter what is done to the product. I don't know of any other product needed to be added to hydrochloric for it to have a constant pH over time and to me it is pretty well self-buffering. Over time it may degrade - but that's not because a buffer was added.

I just think that the bia is strongly suggesting that muriatic not be used on its own, for safety reasons.
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Old 04-28-2009, 08:15 AM   #19
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Muratic acid on aluminum clad windows


Ferrous oxides plus trace amounts of heavy metals. This is what contributes to the acid staining. They are talking about staining caused by the salts in the brick which can be drawn out by improper use of acidic materials (generally not pre-wetting or using high pressure that drives the cleaner into the pores of the brick).

Safety is certainly an issue, but the bottom line is as stated above:

Why use muriatic when there is a product specifically designed to perform the job? Do you use a shovel to eat ice cream? Because you can, you know.

Cost? Is a couple of bucks worth the risk?
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Old 04-28-2009, 08:50 AM   #20
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Muratic acid on aluminum clad windows


So, are you saying that 'trace amounts' of contaminants in muriatic are the cause of staining on brick? I think you might have to clarify what 'trace amounts' are in the muriatic and in the brick for staining to be attributable to one or the other - but my money's on impurites in the brick, just as you go on to say.

When it comes to chemicals, I am all in favour of greater safety and for tailor-made products to be used for a precise job - so I think we are on the same page on that issue. That's why I don't use elephant-gun chemicals to obtain the best results. Cost is not an issue for me, but may be for the average contractor or DIYer; so I like seeing the muriatic being limited to knowledgeable users only and applaud their efforts.

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Old 04-28-2009, 08:58 AM   #21
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Muratic acid on aluminum clad windows


Trace amounts of heavy metals. There can be more than trace amounts of ferrous oxides, and it is that can cause staining apart from the mineral salts in the brick.
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Old 04-28-2009, 08:26 PM   #22
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Muratic acid on aluminum clad windows


Tscar is right on this one. Certain brick need certain cleaning agents. Muriatic acid would most likely work fine on certain brick. But why gamble with such a large investment? It is not like the BIA has a vendetta against muriacid acid or says that you can only use one specific cleaner. The tag on a cube of brick usually says what type of cleaner to use. It also says that using anything else will void the warranty. Last brick job I was on was Vanatrol only. Which is designed to keep manganese and vanadium stains off the brick. I have seen brick washed with the wrong products and the brick in the wall look different than the brick in the stock pile.
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Old 04-29-2009, 12:34 AM   #23
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Muratic acid on aluminum clad windows


Quote:
Tscarborough;266605]Ferrous oxides plus trace amounts of heavy metals. This is what contributes to the acid staining. They are talking about staining caused by the salts in the brick which can be drawn out by improper use of acidic materials (generally not pre-wetting or using high pressure that drives the cleaner into the pores of the brick).
so, am I reading your statement correctly? It is the materials in the brick that cause the staining, not crap in the acid?

it is also stating that failure to wet and/or high pressure are additional causes that exacerbate the problem, yes?

So, we are back to it is not the acid per se that is the problem but how it may react to foreign material in the brick and the improper process or defective procedures in a proper procedure that is of concern, yes?

Like I said, long ago;

yes, there appears to be other products that are considered to be preferable to HCI but HCI is, or can be, used successfully but the average joe should stay away from it due to the severe problems it can cause when used improperly as well as a consideration for the warrantee may disallow its use.

Quote:
ccarlise writes:

I'll also suggest that proprietary products used to clean brick, (and someone mentioned ProSoCo products), are formulated acidic products that may or may not contain hydrochloric acid and indeed are the products suggested to clean brick because of their track record for safety.
here is the MSDS for prosoco brick wash: http://www.prosoco.com/Documents/getfile.aspx?filekey={0550637A-08AE-4F9E-B554-3D462C304A2F}

contains phosphoric acid and gluconic acid.

and as to the spent acid from pickling:

Quote:
Pickling of steel

One of the most important applications of hydrochloric acid is in the pickling of steel, to remove rust or iron oxide scale from iron or steel before subsequent processing, such as extrusion, rolling, galvanizing, and other techniques.[3][5] Technical quality HCl at typically 18% concentration is the most commonly used pickling agent for the pickling of carbon steel grades.
Fe2O3 + Fe + 6 HCl → 3 FeCl2 + 3 H2O The spent acid has long been re-used as iron(II) chloride (also known as ferrous chloride) solutions, but high heavy-metal levels in the pickling liquor has decreased this practice.
The steel pickling industry has developed hydrochloric acid regeneration processes, such as the spray roaster or the fluidized bed HCl regeneration process, which allow the recovery of HCl from spent pickling liquor. The most common regeneration process is the pyrohydrolysis process, applying the following formula:[3]
4 FeCl2 + 4 H2O + O2 → 8 HCl+ 2 Fe2O3 By recuperation of the spent acid, a closed acid loop is established.[5] The iron(III) oxide by-product of the regeneration process is valuable, used in a variety of secondary industries
Then we have this concerning pickling:

Quote:
Why Acid Reclamation?
In chapter 2, discussing the change-over from sulfuric to hydrochloric acids that took place in the
early 1960’s, we said that one of the main reasons for making the changes was that it had
become possible to regenerate, or reclaim, spent hydrochloric acid; not just the ‘free’ (unused)
acid, but also the acid combined with the iron. This means, that, in theory, a pickler using
hydrochloric acid would never need to buy any more acid once the plant had been filled initially.
Of course, no plant ever operates at perfect efficiency, so losses of a few percent have to be
expected, but still the purchased acid would only be about 1 to 5% of the acid usually needed
for pickling without reclamation.
To the pickler, the attractions of reclamation are:
- no spent acid to dispose of
- no worries about acid supplies in times of shortage
- oxide from the reclamation plant is easy to dispose of, and can even be a
saleable product
Against these attractions are:
- another process to operate
- costs of operations
When all the figures are analysed, the actual direct cost of reclaiming acid from the spent
solution is just about the same as purchased acid delivered to the plant, so the big advantage of
acid reclamation and very important these days, is to eliminate the effluent problem. As a
result, picklers have, in the past, thought of acid reclamation as a kind of waste treatment
process; unwanted, undesirable and unnecessary. As we have seen already, this is not the
case; acid reclamation is an important part of an efficient pickling system, and its operation
must be just as important to the pickle line operators as his own pickler.
So, if reclamation is used, which I would presume is the inustry standard currently, there is no waste or spent acid to get rid of so that would dispute the argument that available muriatic acid is simply used acid from steel pickling plants.

Quote:
jomama45
C'mon now nap, your allright, don't be taking your ball & going home now. Probably the most important point that Tscar was making is that it isn't the BEST practice
I acknowledged that long ago in post #8. As a matter of fact, it was in reponse to your post (#7) and then again in post #11.

Like all tools; they each have their uses, benefits, and problems. If used improperly, the best of tools can cause an undesireable result. As we progress through time, it seems there are fewer and fewer people that use any given tool properly so we take action to prevent an idiot from doing idiotic things. That does not mean the tool is bad, just there is an idiot using it. Kind of like the guy that uses the butt of a gun as a mallet. The results are generally expected by all except the idiot using the butt of his gun for a mallet.
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Old 05-01-2009, 04:22 PM   #24
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Muratic acid on aluminum clad windows


Sorry it took so long to reply, I have been hectic at work and wanted to talk to the muriatic acid distributer since I was bumping up against the limits of my knowledge.

Here is what I was told in regards to the origin and possible impurities in muriatic acid.

First, there is no such thing as virgin muriatic. It is a waste product from various other manufacturing processes, and none is manufactured directly. The primary streams are from the chemical processing field (plastics, dyes, paints) and the steel manufacturing field. Your location is what will determine the origin of the muriatic. North East and Midwest it will be from steel, South and West from chemical manufacturing.

Regardless, although there may be contaminants, they are dilute enough that it should not matter, with the muriatic sold being rated lab quality and/or food grade.

He also told me how to buffer it to make it work better with less chance of burning, but I will keep that info to myself.
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Old 05-01-2009, 05:35 PM   #25
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Muratic acid on aluminum clad windows


He wasn't truthful with you.


hydrochloric acid is intentionally produced. The fact that it is produced by using the hydrogen chloride, byproducts of other manufacturing processes, and processing it in to hydrochloric acid does not change that fact.

So yes, hydrochloric acid is manufactured directly and intentionally. The fact it uses a byproduct of other manufacturing processes in its production does not mean it is not produced directly. It is produced by intentionally combining other chemicals to result in hydrochloric acid.

Now if he means hydrogen chloride is not produced specifically for the purpose of producing hydrochloric acid, then he may be correct but yes, there is such thing as "virgin acid" and it is manufactured directly, as I have explained.
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Old 05-01-2009, 05:42 PM   #26
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Muratic acid on aluminum clad windows


That is what I and he meant: It is not produced for sale, it is produced to be used in other chemical processes and is then technically a waste product (although one with value, just like the "cinders" in "cinderblock" are a waste product).

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