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Old 12-11-2010, 06:15 PM   #16
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Insulation Question...


I love it how people gladly spend their free time trying to be like me, just to think they saved a few bucks. Kind of a big mistake don't you think? Tear apart the entire house that was just built........

Like I said, they obviously skipped many things and will be paying for it eventually because any building inspector would have caught that problem way before anything was covered up.

A location and maybe a response from the original poster and we may get somewhere.

Ccarlisle, you are brutal, but I like it. Without someone speaking up, some people will never learn. It WILL get worse in the future when all these young kids grow up that have been told they were right their whole lives, and there are no losers. Life hits them hard and quick once they get out of their parents basement.

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Old 12-11-2010, 07:32 PM   #17
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Insulation Question...


If the outside temperature ever goes below freezing you need a vapor barrier contrary to one of the postings here. The vapor barrier is to face the inside of the house and you should only have one barrier.

Regardless of what has been said moisture vapor will pass through the structure and into the attic and this is why you need good ventilation in the attic. Soffic vents must be open (not covered by the insulation) if there isn't good ventilation in the attic the moisture becomes trapped causing the problems you are experiencing.

I have posted some things to look for, good luck with your problem.

As many benefits are there are to insulation, there are also skeletons in the closet. I have been asked many times over the years about unusual mildew growth on walls and ceilings or wet areas on walls where there is no apparent roof or plumbing leak. Since these events occur only in the winter months, the obvious culprit is a poorly planned or poorly installed insulation/vapor barrier system. Unfortunately, this can be a problem without an easy fix; cutting open the walls may be required to find out just what inside the wall is causing the problem.
To complicate the situation further, there may be culprits on the outside of your home, too. Oil paints are natural vapor barriers and they can cause moisture that would normally pass through the wood siding to linger and condense. Blistering exterior paint is a sure sign of moisture within the walls... yearning to be free!
Oh, your house has artificial siding? Well, aluminum or vinyl siding installed over a non-breathing insulation board can also be a suspect here, decreasing your home's natural ability to breathe.


Before you get the wrecking ball, here are a few less expensive things you can try.
  • Don't add extra moisture to the air by using a humidifier.
  • Use your bathroom and kitchen exhaust fans religiously.
  • Eliminate sources of moisture in the basement and crawlspace.
  • Use a vapor barrier paint to slow down the movement of moisture into the trouble spot.
  • Install small circular plug vents between the studs on the exterior of the house... top and bottom. They will allow some needed air circulation within the wall, and give the moisture an escape route. These are the easiest vents to install... just drill a hole of the proper size for the plug vent you choose and press it into place.
  • Peeling paint? Besides doing everything above, use latex paint or latex stain for your next paint job to allow for more vapor movement.
Heres a link to the whole article http://www.naturalhandyman.com/iip/i...infinsul2.html
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Old 12-11-2010, 08:19 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackofall1 View Post
If the outside temperature ever goes below freezing you need a vapor barrier contrary to one of the postings here. See the links below. Maybe you mean "vapor retarder" where you say "vapor barrier". There is a difference, and it is confusing.

...you need good ventilation in the attic. No doubt about it.


...aluminum or vinyl siding installed over a non-breathing insulation board can also be a suspect here I believe these sidings are classified as "vapor open" because they are not tight at all. Insulation board can reduce the wall's permeability.
[*]Use your bathroom and kitchen exhaust fans religiously. See the ASHRAE specs for ventilation: 1 cfm/100 sqr ft of living space, plus 7.5 cfm/occupant. Keep the humidity about 30-40%, too.
[*]Use a vapor barrier paint to slow down the movement of moisture into the trouble spot. Again, I think that what is meant is a Class II vapor retarder. A vapor barrier stops moisture (aluminum foil) while a retarder does just that.
See a few comments above, after the bullets.

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...-vapor-barrier

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/...moisture-walls
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Old 12-12-2010, 01:22 AM   #19
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Jklingel - My point is, unless one was build a home of glass completely sealed which is a rediculous thought, then us mere mortals use what the industry refers to as "Vapor Barrier" but I am real impressed by your quotes from ASHRAE it at least proves you know how to read.

Now lets try and help these folks solve their problem instead of trying to dazzle the world with your indepth knowledge of Vapor Retarders.

The idea of using bathroom and kitchen exhaust fans, assuming they vent to the outside, is to eliminate the excess humidity at the source.

Which brings a good point, do the vents in this house vent to the outside or did the builder vent them to the attic?
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Old 12-12-2010, 02:06 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Jackofall1 View Post
Jklingel - ....what the industry refers to as "Vapor Barrier".... Maybe you hang around in the wrong industry. The terms "vapor barrier" and "vapor retarder" are two different animals, and if you are trying to help someone you should make sure they are aware of the proper use of each term. Dire consequences can happen by mixing them up.

but I am real impressed by your quotes from ASHRAE it at least proves you know how to read. It is often wise to site the source of your information, just so people think you are not trying to "dazzle the world" (that has a ring of... never mind....). It also lets them have a reference that they can READ, too, in case they come to a different conclusion. I am glad you are impressed so easily.

Now lets try and help these folks solve their problem instead of trying to dazzle the world with your indepth knowledge of Vapor Retarders. I will refrain from any provocative statements, as it seems you get a little emotional about talking science. Please keep them separate, and if someone says something different that you did, maybe you can learn from it. If you are going to help them, then you best make sure they know the lingo; VB does not equal VR. If you are taking anything I said in a manner that elicits sarcasm, then kick back and relax. All I was doing was clarifying the difference between two often confusing terms. If that bothers you, so be it.

The idea of using bathroom and kitchen exhaust fans, assuming they vent to the outside, is to eliminate the excess humidity at the source. Which is always a good idea.

And, btw, your comment "If the outside temperature ever goes below freezing you need a vapor barrier..." is not quite true. Most walls will get water in them, and condensation in cold weather will happen. The problem w/ water on the (I assume wood sheathing) is when it is wet and warm, not wet and cold. Having a wall vapor open to the inside will help the wall dry out in the warmer months, so it won't rot. Hence, no vapor BARRIER, and an exterior face that is 5x more permeable than the interior face. (Does that dazzle you, too?) And, yes, I can read, and I would suggest that anyone reading here spends more time doing the same. Being able to read and reply by giving reference to your source is not a crime, ASHRAE or not; it leads a person to quality, professional and expert information. Anyone can come onto a forum a provide "information". If anyone cares to, read buildingscience.com, greenbuildingadvisor.com, Oak Ridge Nat'l Labs, etc.
See after the bullets above. j

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