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Old 02-25-2009, 09:58 PM   #16
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DIY versus Professional


Pro's return calls & do not make promises they have no intention of keeping

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Old 02-25-2009, 10:58 PM   #17
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Sorry, but DIY should not do some things. If they want to endanger themselves and their families, fine, but that house will eventually be sold, and that is when shoddy work will begin to show itself.
My father (80 years old and still working full time. Machinist, mechanic, electrician by training. Most of my childhood he was going to one tech school or another. But Master Maintenance Mechanic lead now) has to deal with "professionals" who come in to work on projects where he works. His last rant was about a so called licensed electrician who couldn't read a multimeter. Obviously, that's the person I want working on my house. Remember when Hurricane Andrew hit Holmstead, FL? When they started investigating why the houses disintegrated (beside the 140mph winds) they found out that on many of the houses, when the "professional" carpenters went up the roof nailing the sheathing on, they missed the joists. Good thing those houses weren't built by DIYers or something bad might have happened.

Professional just means they're paid to do it.

Yes, there are very knowledgeable, very skilled craftsman out there. I'm not one because I don't get that much experience being a professional professional by trade. (Need a system life cycle modeled in Excel VisualBasic? I'm your man.) But I trade off lack of fluency with going slow and careful. I do things many pros wouldn't do because it burns up too much time. For them, time is money. For me time is not having to do something else that I want to do less, like the term paper due Monday that I should be writing right now.

I would not support the general statement that there are some things DIYers should not do. There really isn't much in a house that's that hard to understand. There are some things DIYers cannot do. If you need a cement pump, you're going to get a crew with it. My wife and I were trying to figure out how to extend the driveway ourselves. Problem is, if you get a truckload of asphalt, you're going to get a crew with it, at which point you might as well sit back and watch.

DIYers need to know their limitations. (mine's ladders) But that's an individual thing. (Renovation Realities on DIY net has some classics) There are two very good reasons why DIYers, or any purchaser of contractor services, should make themselves knowledgeable: 1) They care. It's their house. (or care/boat/airplane/motorcycle, etc.) 2) If they do have a contractor come in, they can supervise because some "professionals" need it.
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Old 02-25-2009, 11:45 PM   #18
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DIY versus Professional


For all those *****ing about bad contractors doing bad work....there is one simple answer, you get what you pay for. Cheap contractors do cheap work. Not all contractors out there are shoddy shady people...many of us take ALOT of pride in what we do, and b/c we make a living doing it, many of us feel we should be the best at it. Many of us will take the bullet here and there and do that "small thing that burns time" to make the job nicer...some will charge for it, some will not.

There are alot of hacks out there and they are just DIY's who are moonlighting and putting a bad light on the real contrators. I started out as a DIY and fell into the field...so I tend to share alot with DIYs for I rememeber what it is like to be there....


All I wanted to say is don't make us all out to be the bad guys....
I have worked on jobs before where I was helping out a DIYer....bought a modular home, fired the crew, took on the work himself, couldn't do it all, hired me. I shared my knowledge with him as I went, I know I lost a few aspects of that job b/c he took them over with some of the things I taught him but oh well. You could also tell where I had worked on something and where he had worked on something...

Last edited by TBFghost; 02-25-2009 at 11:52 PM.
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Old 02-26-2009, 05:44 AM   #19
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I have no limits except for what I can lift.
First reason you should not be doing your own work. I have contracted for 35 years. Went to college for 8 years. Went to classes on the average 1 week a year for specialized trades. And I feel I am just learning. Your limits are that you clearly do not know what a quality job entails.


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And it's probably better that the city doesn't know what I do inside.
Yeah! poor inspectors have it had enough keeping us safe from the pros who are at least trying to do it right.

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Background
Blah blah blah... all of this only to prove that you have no interest in doing any job right. No ability to appreciate a professional quality in any product


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Building codes are fine. Tell me what they are and I'll follow them. But I resent being bound by a law or regulation that I then have to pay to access. $100 for a copy of the International Residential Code. BAH HUMBUG! I'll look at an older copy at the library.
you continue to show your lack of limits. New codes are updates to increase our protection from shoddy work (like yours) and unsafe condition. But why would you want to spend $100 dollars to protect your $80,000 house. (might have cost you more, but after all your diligent work it is now worthless)


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Wife wants to add to the house to expand the kitchen (I want to build an airplane. Guess which is going to happen first.) Trying to get wrapped around the foundation issue.
Wife's plan will be first if she gets the insurance approved.

Last edited by Termite; 02-26-2009 at 08:36 AM. Reason: site rules
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Old 02-26-2009, 05:51 AM   #20
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gee bob.... ya weren't too hard on him, were you? lol

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Old 02-26-2009, 05:59 AM   #21
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gee bob.... ya weren't too hard on him, were you? lol

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I don't thing so. Reminds me of these people who refuse to give their dying children medicine since the corrupt government wasted millions of dollars to develop a life saving vaccine and grandma already has the best remedy out there she learned from a local witch doctor. What is with some people. Maybe Mom dropped him on his head too many times. Maybe his wife can use this to help around the house. Of course it is for him not the subject in this video.
http://www.break.com/index/squirrel_catapult.html

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Old 02-26-2009, 08:20 AM   #22
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Attitude abounds both on the DIY and Pro side.

Since I'm not a pro, I sincerely appreciate it when the pros say "DON'T DO IT". I don't know.

Since I'm a DIYer, I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY TRULY appreciate it when any one takes the time to educate me.

However, sometimes it hurts to hear the truth ; and, sometimes people don't take the time to sugar-coat things . But, we're mostly grown-ups around here () so take the lumps and BRAG when you get something right.

Because, the first people who congratulate you will often be those who challenged you along the way.
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Old 02-26-2009, 08:33 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by mwpiper View Post
Building codes are fine. Tell me what they are and I'll follow them. But I resent being bound by a law or regulation that I then have to pay to access. $100 for a copy of the International Residential Code. BAH HUMBUG! I'll look at an older copy at the library.
The enforcement jurisdiction (City, County, whatever) is required by code to have two copies of the code available and marked for public viewing at their office. That way nobody is denied access to the code and nobody has to pay one red cent to use it.
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Old 02-26-2009, 08:43 AM   #24
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our library even let me check out the 2008 nec, they had 2 copies. but one could not be checked out.

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Old 02-26-2009, 09:14 AM   #25
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I agree that most local libraries have access to code books. Most DIYers that don't want to get permits or inspections are too cheap to do so. They use the excuses freely about the City making "big bucks' from them. In reality, they want to make their homes worth more at resale without investing the time or money to do it correctly. They are aware that taxes also raise with the value of the home. With the advent of the DIY television programs, more buyers are requiring a "paper trail" to make sure the house is safe to live in. Home Inspectors were unheard of 15 years ago, now they are the norm.
I think DIY is a great way for home owners to save money and learn new things. Just do it correctly. I have posted in many DIY Forums and do it to help those who ask. I have also been a Plumber for over 30 years and a City Inspector. I have taken time to explain the reasons for certain codes and usually the customer is happy once they realize it is for their benefit. I have also seen people in DIY Forums who cannot/ will not accept the concept. Installing a toilet is quite easy, but knowing why and how it works is not included in the installation directions.
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Old 02-26-2009, 09:30 AM   #26
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Good feedback, all. I try not to paint everyone (home owners, contractors, inspectors, union tradesmen) with too broad of a brush. There are some good guys out there, and some lazy guys out there, and some bad guys out there.

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Originally Posted by thekctermite View Post
I'm a major supporter of DIY work, that's probably why I invest so much of my time on this site. I encourage DIY work and inspect a heck of a lot of it. Some DIY work is better than a lot of professionals' work in reality.
Thanks for your support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwpiper View Post
Professional just means they're paid to do it. Yes, there are very knowledgeable, very skilled craftsman out there. I'm not one because I don't get that much experience being a professional professional by trade. (Need a system life cycle modeled in Excel VisualBasic? I'm your man.) But I trade off lack of fluency with going slow and careful. I do things many pros wouldn't do because it burns up too much time. For them, time is money. For me time is not having to do something else that I want to do less, like the term paper due Monday that I should be writing right now.
Thanks for the replies. I, too, am a professional (FDA-related) and I can relate to tradesmen advising me not to try to do it myself, because it sounds like something I would say. I've seen people try to do the work that I do and it comes off as sloppy and just plain inadequate. Because they didn't take the time to understand the regulations, learn to do it right, and have someone check their work.

But as a consultant, this (consulting) is how I earn my living and so I'm not going to advocate that my clients do the work themselves. So I can relate to my electician saying the only work I should do myself is the drilling of the holes through the floor joists, but I should I hire him to run the romex.

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