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DIY versus Professional

4K views 25 replies 13 participants last post by  Hemingway 
#1 ·
Why does it feel like I can't be allowed to do it myself?

I appreciate professionals and craftsmen, and recognize that they have honed skills that can make a job go so much faster with better results. I learned this lesson the hard way, finishing drywall; getting a corner bead correct - looks easier than it is. I had all the right tools and materials, but just not enough experience for it to go quickly or look right when I was finished.

But I've also had many disappointing experiences with guys who didn't know what they were doing and didn't care. Especially in auto repair. So I believe in craftsmanship, and in safety, and in professionalism, but I don't want to spend my money on someone just because they claim to be a "professional" if I am going to get average results.

On the Electrical board I saw a short discussion on how pro's use metal staples while a DIYer will use Nylon cable straps, and you can always tell an electrical job was NOT done by an electrician if the Nylon was used. The NEC says the Nylon straps are safer because they won't penetrate the cable by mistake, which is why I use them, but an electrician knows how to staple and he does it all day long and he's just not going to put a staple through the romex, period.

If I do the work in a workman-like manner, and follow the regs, I should be okay. But an inspection will reveal that it was indeed a DIY, and I didn't hire an electrician. So because of the permit and inspection I need to hire an electrician?

Also, I don't even get the idea of the permit. See, it seems more like a way for the city to raise money than a way to keep standards high. It isn't like the city is going to come out and supervise, give helpful hints, or loan me their tools.

I've just got too much work to do to hire professionals, and I enjoy learning how to do it myself, and getting satisfaction from working with my hands on my own property. I want to understand what is going on in my house, and not let someone else make decisions for the outcome. And because I'm willing to put the time into it, I'll lay bets that the results will be a higher quality.

So why do I feel this pressure that it is okay for me to water the lawn and pull the weeds, but for really important work, better hire a professional?
 
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#2 ·
Around here I can do anything except plumbing & SE feed
I can electrocute myself but they don't want me getting wet :laughing:
I think because plumbers can do gas connections is the main reason. We've had 3 houses blow up recently around here due to gas explosions :(
The State, Town etc set the rules as to what you can or can't do

I prefer Inspections
I've never had a problem & the Inspectors have pointed out a few things to do better. Id much rather have inspections then have a neighbor rig something up that will burn down his house & MINE too

As you improve your property the value goes up & its worth more
And your taxes will go up
If you don't like that then don't improve your property
Why should someone be able to buy a run down house, fix it up & then pay 1/2 the taxes or less then I am paying? In a perfect world every house is supposed to be re-appraised every "x" number of years. Some Towns simply raise the appraised tax value & then you have to file an appeal if you think it is unfair/wrong
 
#3 ·
You should be able to DIY. I am in CT and you can do everything as long as you live in your house for one year and it is your primary residence. But many things are not really good DIY jobs. Large slabs, cabinet finishes, new granite, basements (read the threads... no one seems to know how to do it). Some things lead to problems that you will not even know you have. Adding a basement bath, not sealing a cut in the cement thus releasing radon into the house. I could give hundreds of issues a DIY person may not be able to understand the right way to do things. Thus walls are covered and all looks okay. But next homeowner is on here complaining about the detstruction you did by not having the experience to avoid the pitfalls of incorrect methods products and code compliance. If you DIY, question everything. Study and plan everything. Even then hire a pro to consult. it will be worth the money.
 
#4 ·
My breakdown is: If done incorrectly it can harm myself or others, then it should be done by professionals. The only other caveat, one that covers what I do professionally, is that if done wrong, it can cost twice as much to rip out and re-do correctly. With cementious products, you generally have a small window to do it, so it has to be done right the first time.
 
#6 ·
My breakdown is: If done incorrectly it can harm myself or others, then it should be done by professionals.
That really limits things you can do around the house then. People that know their limits and are willing to welcome oversight (inspections) ought to be able to bite off as much as they can chew.

Trust me when I say that "professionals" often do very very very unsafe work. I've built a career on it.

Just my opinion. :whistling2:
 
#5 ·
Also, I don't even get the idea of the permit. See, it seems more like a way for the city to raise money than a way to keep standards high. It isn't like the city is going to come out and supervise, give helpful hints, or loan me their tools.
I'll bite...

As a City inspector, I can assure you that you're wrong about raising money. Nearly all city inspection departments are money-losers or break even at best. Permit fees are usually nowhere near the costs associated with employees, equipment, training, etc. Scuba Dave is right...Here in the USA you have to pay to play. If you want a nice house plan on paying your share of the taxes.

In my years as an inspector, I can safely say that I've saved people more money than I've made in my puny paychecks by working with them and offering them ways to do their projects more cost-effectively while still maintaining the code's standards. I've solved big problems for thousands of people instead of sending them on wild goose chases. There's no way to tally the money I've saved people, but I bet it is easily well over nine digits.

Then there's the things I've caught that would have certainly caused property damage, structural failure, fires, or electrocution. Sometimes those catches cost people money. Read my signature. Code is a minimum standard and if meeting it is too big of a problem you have no business doing the work...DIYer or pro.

Nobody appreciates the building inspector like they appreciate firefighters. Firefighters put the fire out and save cats and dogs and stuff. We keep the fire from happening in the first place in some cases (hack electrical work can cause fires), and the things we require in structures does keep the fire from propogating like it otherwise might. Our job is much less glamourous and our trucks aren't as cool.

I can usually spot a DIY electrical job right off. That doesn't mean that is a bad thing, but pro jobs and DIY jobs usually have differences. Staples are a good example, and you're right, you can use any staple listed for the job. The pro's just know what works better for them.

I'm a major supporter of DIY work, that's probably why I invest so much of my time on this site. I encourage DIY work and inspect a heck of a lot of it. Some DIY work is better than a lot of professionals' work in reality.

If your city won't allow you to do your own electric or plumbing (or whatever), something is awry and that really sucks. My experience has shown that cities that require electricians or plumbers to do that scope of work typically are in pretty tight with the plumbers, electricians, and the unions. File a formal complaint with the city administration, city council, the mayor, etc.
 
#26 ·
Good feedback, all. I try not to paint everyone (home owners, contractors, inspectors, union tradesmen) with too broad of a brush. There are some good guys out there, and some lazy guys out there, and some bad guys out there.

I'm a major supporter of DIY work, that's probably why I invest so much of my time on this site. I encourage DIY work and inspect a heck of a lot of it. Some DIY work is better than a lot of professionals' work in reality.
Thanks for your support.

Professional just means they're paid to do it. Yes, there are very knowledgeable, very skilled craftsman out there. I'm not one because I don't get that much experience being a professional professional by trade.:huh: (Need a system life cycle modeled in Excel VisualBasic? I'm your man.) But I trade off lack of fluency with going slow and careful. I do things many pros wouldn't do because it burns up too much time. For them, time is money. For me time is not having to do something else that I want to do less, like the term paper due Monday that I should be writing right now.
Thanks for the replies. I, too, am a professional (FDA-related) and I can relate to tradesmen advising me not to try to do it myself, because it sounds like something I would say. I've seen people try to do the work that I do and it comes off as sloppy and just plain inadequate. Because they didn't take the time to understand the regulations, learn to do it right, and have someone check their work.

But as a consultant, this (consulting) is how I earn my living and so I'm not going to advocate that my clients do the work themselves. So I can relate to my electician saying the only work I should do myself is the drilling of the holes through the floor joists, but I should I hire him to run the romex.
 
#9 ·
KC Termite, I wish all inspectors worked as you do. However my experience with inspectors has not been as good. Job put on hold for 1 week because 'I want that roof sheathing torn off and nailed with 10p not 8p nails. (Code here is 8p) Had to wait for a city engineer to overrule him. 'You need to bond that ground wire to the water pipe' (the supply line coming out of the ground that he was looking at was PVC) Yeah, terrific idea there you dumb***. 'Double wall exhaust for a water heater set more tan 12" from any combustable.' (Here is the code book, it says i am correct) 'But I want double wall cause it's better' (and a Mercedes is better than a Nissan, which one do you own?) Just a few of hundreds of my own experiences--- Inspectors? NO THANKS:furious:
 
#10 ·
if someone has the brains to do it themselves and have it inspected and pass, then they have my vote as a good diy'er.
isn't that what this site is all about?
i've had to do everything in this home myself, from electric to plumbing, framing to concrete to drywall...*yuk*
all passed with flying colors and will continue to do so. you want to know why? because if i'm unsure of something, i ask questions! here, or from the inspector, the library, who/wherever! no question is stupid, there are only stupid answers. as to inspectors? they're human too....i've had great ones, and ones that should be behind a desk somewhere....

DM
 
#11 ·
To Contract, or not to Contract? That is the Question.

Greetings Earthlings!

New to the site, first post. But this topic is near and dear.

I have no limits except for what I can lift. And it's probably better that the city doesn't know what I do inside.

Background
In 1986, in my first house, I replaced an old gravity furnace with a new Sears furnace and air conditioner. Took three months, June to September. Turned on the air conditioner on September 3rd and left it on until like December. It's still running 23 years later. (The whole thing. Not just the air conditioner.)

In 1988, bought and rehabbed a handyman special. Rewired the whole thing. Put in about a 1/4 mile of Romex. Fortunately the old fuse box had already been replaced with a breaker panel. Wiring your own house is allowed where I live by taking a test at the Public Works office so they can decide whether you're going to kill yourself or not. And it was inspected with maybe three redoes.

2004-2008 rebuilt main bathroom (I'll do anything, but I don't necessarily do it fast). All lathe and plaster removed except for ceiling (didn't want to get into all that insulation. One wall rebuilt completely and floor joists replaced for rot. When I say I built the bathroom, I mean it. Wrecked it, framed it, plumbed it, wired it, plastered it, tiled it. Downstairs bathroom currently stripped to studs. Wife says it's not going take four years this time...or else.

My attitude towards contractors:
Only if I have to. A contractor put in the furnace and air conditioner in the new house because it died when I wasn't going to be able to take three months replacing it. That was successful. Had three warranty service calls in three years, then no problems (installation related. Cat hair is another issue.) I had a roof put on as part of an insurance settlement after a hail storm. Don't try and tell me how wonderful "professionals" are. "Professional" means they get paid to do it. The roof doesn't leak. That's the only good thing to say about it. I had the driveway repaved. It's one of those jobs that's too big to lift. Paid too much, but I had fairly strict requirements to keep the height below a skirt next to the house and to get it to pitch away.

Philosophically, I like the independence of being able to do things myself even if the opportunity is there to use contractors. I work with people who use contractors for everything. I don't know if they get off on the feeling of dependency or if they are taken with the idea of authority figures absolving them of any responsibility. I don't think its lazy. I'm lazy. I KNOW lazy. That's why the bathroom took four years.

Neighbor down the street works for the gas company. Most (many?) house explosions are not related to gas leaks in the house, but gas leaks underground that infiltrate the house. A gas leak in the house smells. Gas filtered through the ground may not. Gas pipes are easy to check for leaks. Do them yourself. (not his words, but my interpretation.)

Building codes are fine. Tell me what they are and I'll follow them. But I resent being bound by a law or regulation that I then have to pay to access. $100 for a copy of the International Residential Code. BAH HUMBUG! I'll look at an older copy at the library.

They want to inspect it. Fine. Inspect the work done. Not whether or not it was done by their cousin Vinny or a member of the union or contractor's lobby that bought themselves some politicians to make me have to pay them. Got that plumbers?

Wife wants to add to the house to expand the kitchen (I want to build an airplane. Guess which is going to happen first.) Trying to get wrapped around the foundation issue. That's probably the only part that's too big to lift. This project will be one that is going to require *&%@# permits. Guess I'm going to find out how the regulatory environment has changed since last I dealt with an inspector.

End of first post. How'd I do?
 
#23 ·
Building codes are fine. Tell me what they are and I'll follow them. But I resent being bound by a law or regulation that I then have to pay to access. $100 for a copy of the International Residential Code. BAH HUMBUG! I'll look at an older copy at the library.
The enforcement jurisdiction (City, County, whatever) is required by code to have two copies of the code available and marked for public viewing at their office. That way nobody is denied access to the code and nobody has to pay one red cent to use it.
 
#14 ·
but that house will eventually be sold, and that is when shoddy work will begin to show itself.
That applies to a lot of contractors too
One reason I DIY - I do it better

I'd love to be able to find a good contractor who won't then have a hired hand do the work who doesn't know as much as I do

I'd also love to be able to afford to hire a Pro to do the work

And I'd love to be able to find a Pro who shows up when they say they will. I can't afford to wait 6 weeks every time I need work started
 
#13 ·
one thing ive learned for being on a couple of these forums is that even the ''contractors'' dont agree on anything,the last poster is better than the one before but if you can suck up your pride alittle theres alot to learn.

dosent really pertain to the op's post just had to vent alittle:jester:
 
#17 ·
Sorry, but DIY should not do some things. If they want to endanger themselves and their families, fine, but that house will eventually be sold, and that is when shoddy work will begin to show itself.
My father (80 years old and still working full time. Machinist, mechanic, electrician by training. Most of my childhood he was going to one tech school or another. But Master Maintenance Mechanic lead now) has to deal with "professionals" who come in to work on projects where he works. His last rant was about a so called licensed electrician who couldn't read a multimeter. Obviously, that's the person I want working on my house.:thumbsup: Remember when Hurricane Andrew hit Holmstead, FL? When they started investigating why the houses disintegrated (beside the 140mph winds) they found out that on many of the houses, when the "professional" carpenters went up the roof nailing the sheathing on, they missed the joists. Good thing those houses weren't built by DIYers or something bad might have happened.

Professional just means they're paid to do it.

Yes, there are very knowledgeable, very skilled craftsman out there. I'm not one because I don't get that much experience being a professional professional by trade.:huh: (Need a system life cycle modeled in Excel VisualBasic? I'm your man.) But I trade off lack of fluency with going slow and careful. I do things many pros wouldn't do because it burns up too much time. For them, time is money. For me time is not having to do something else that I want to do less, like the term paper due Monday that I should be writing right now.:whistling2:

I would not support the general statement that there are some things DIYers should not do. There really isn't much in a house that's that hard to understand. There are some things DIYers cannot do. If you need a cement pump, you're going to get a crew with it. My wife and I were trying to figure out how to extend the driveway ourselves. Problem is, if you get a truckload of asphalt, you're going to get a crew with it, at which point you might as well sit back and watch.

DIYers need to know their limitations. (mine's ladders) But that's an individual thing. (Renovation Realities on DIY net has some classics) There are two very good reasons why DIYers, or any purchaser of contractor services, should make themselves knowledgeable: 1) They care. It's their house. (or care/boat/airplane/motorcycle, etc.) 2) If they do have a contractor come in, they can supervise because some "professionals" need it.
 
#18 · (Edited)
For all those *****ing about bad contractors doing bad work....there is one simple answer, you get what you pay for. Cheap contractors do cheap work. Not all contractors out there are shoddy shady people...many of us take ALOT of pride in what we do, and b/c we make a living doing it, many of us feel we should be the best at it. Many of us will take the bullet here and there and do that "small thing that burns time" to make the job nicer...some will charge for it, some will not.

There are alot of hacks out there and they are just DIY's who are moonlighting and putting a bad light on the real contrators. I started out as a DIY and fell into the field...so I tend to share alot with DIYs for I rememeber what it is like to be there....


All I wanted to say is don't make us all out to be the bad guys....
I have worked on jobs before where I was helping out a DIYer....bought a modular home, fired the crew, took on the work himself, couldn't do it all, hired me. I shared my knowledge with him as I went, I know I lost a few aspects of that job b/c he took them over with some of the things I taught him but oh well. You could also tell where I had worked on something and where he had worked on something...
 
#19 · (Edited by Moderator)
I have no limits except for what I can lift.
First reason you should not be doing your own work. I have contracted for 35 years. Went to college for 8 years. Went to classes on the average 1 week a year for specialized trades. And I feel I am just learning. Your limits are that you clearly do not know what a quality job entails.


And it's probably better that the city doesn't know what I do inside.
Yeah! poor inspectors have it had enough keeping us safe from the pros who are at least trying to do it right.

Background
Blah blah blah... all of this only to prove that you have no interest in doing any job right. No ability to appreciate a professional quality in any product


Building codes are fine. Tell me what they are and I'll follow them. But I resent being bound by a law or regulation that I then have to pay to access. $100 for a copy of the International Residential Code. BAH HUMBUG! I'll look at an older copy at the library.
you continue to show your lack of limits. New codes are updates to increase our protection from shoddy work (like yours) and unsafe condition. But why would you want to spend $100 dollars to protect your $80,000 house. (might have cost you more, but after all your diligent work it is now worthless)


Wife wants to add to the house to expand the kitchen (I want to build an airplane. Guess which is going to happen first.) Trying to get wrapped around the foundation issue.
Wife's plan will be first if she gets the insurance approved.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I don't thing so. Reminds me of these people who refuse to give their dying children medicine since the corrupt government wasted millions of dollars to develop a life saving vaccine and grandma already has the best remedy out there she learned from a local witch doctor. What is with some people. Maybe Mom dropped him on his head too many times.:no: Maybe his wife can use this to help around the house. Of course it is for him not the subject in this video.
http://www.break.com/index/squirrel_catapult.html
 
#22 ·
Attitude abounds both on the DIY and Pro side. :yes:

Since I'm not a pro, I sincerely appreciate it when the pros say "DON'T DO IT". I don't know.

Since I'm a DIYer, I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY TRULY appreciate it when any one takes the time to educate me.

However, sometimes it hurts to hear the truth :furious:; and, sometimes people don't take the time to sugar-coat things :jester:. But, we're mostly grown-ups around here :)whistling2:) so take the lumps and BRAG when you get something right. :thumbup:

Because, the first people who congratulate you will often be those who challenged you along the way.
 
#25 ·
I agree that most local libraries have access to code books. Most DIYers that don't want to get permits or inspections are too cheap to do so. They use the excuses freely about the City making "big bucks' from them. In reality, they want to make their homes worth more at resale without investing the time or money to do it correctly. They are aware that taxes also raise with the value of the home. With the advent of the DIY television programs, more buyers are requiring a "paper trail" to make sure the house is safe to live in. Home Inspectors were unheard of 15 years ago, now they are the norm.
I think DIY is a great way for home owners to save money and learn new things. Just do it correctly. I have posted in many DIY Forums and do it to help those who ask. I have also been a Plumber for over 30 years and a City Inspector. I have taken time to explain the reasons for certain codes and usually the customer is happy once they realize it is for their benefit. I have also seen people in DIY Forums who cannot/ will not accept the concept. Installing a toilet is quite easy, but knowing why and how it works is not included in the installation directions.
 
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