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Old 10-10-2009, 10:31 AM   #1
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Discussion on CFL's, Mercury etc


why do people continue to spread the myth that incandescents are being "outlawed". They aren't. Some incandescents, as they are designed now, are being outlawed but incandescents, as a lamp type, are not being outlawed.

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Old 10-10-2009, 10:56 AM   #2
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Gee I think that's why it was "in quotes" so to speak

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Old 10-10-2009, 12:02 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
Gee I think that's why it was "in quotes" so to speak
but this continued claim of "outlawing incandescent lamps" is simply not true. It is like saying they outlawed gasoline when the fed required no lead content in gasoline. They didn't outlaw gasoline, just that particular formulation. Same thing here. They are not outlawing incandescents, just inefficient incandescents and then, not even all of them.

this is kind of "the sky is falling" syndrome.
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:08 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by nap View Post
but this continued claim of "outlawing incandescent lamps" is simply not true. It is like saying they outlawed gasoline when the fed required no lead content in gasoline. They didn't outlaw gasoline, just that particular formulation. Same thing here. They are not outlawing incandescents, just inefficient incandescents and then, not even all of them.

this is kind of "the sky is falling" syndrome.


Nap .,

You have a point and I should mention that there are few spefic types of indentscent bulbs that they are specal useage that is not banned at all like example: Heat lamp , Oven bulb few other as well.

Merci,Marc
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Old 10-10-2009, 01:41 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by frenchelectrican View Post
Nap .,

You have a point and I should mention that there are few spefic types of indentscent bulbs that they are specal useage that is not banned at all like example: Heat lamp , Oven bulb few other as well.

Merci,Marc
as well, I believe it was either Phillips or Sylvania that has stated that by the time the ban is in effect, they will have an incandescent on the market that meets the energy efficiency requirements.

what is banned is the efficiency level, not the lamp style itself.
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:18 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by gma2rjc View Post
I see the ad below this thread advertises packaging to recycle bulbs starting at $34.95. Will we have to pay to dispose of these bulbs as well as pay more to purchase them? Just wondering.
Those services are generally in place because CFL's contain obscene amounts of mercury. If they are just tossed in the bin and they end up in a landfill the mercury leeches out and gets into the water system. I've read a couple news articles about people that have had to pay for abatement when a bulb breaks in their home...
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:44 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by cellophane View Post
Those services are generally in place because CFL's contain obscene amounts of mercury. If they are just tossed in the bin and they end up in a landfill the mercury leeches out and gets into the water system. I've read a couple news articles about people that have had to pay for abatement when a bulb breaks in their home...

This is quite FALSE
Overall with use CFL's put LESS Mercury into the environment
This due to the fact that producing electricty (usually) creates Mercury
Exception would be hydro/wind/photo voltaic produced power
So using 75% LESS electricity thus ends up being LESS Mercury in the environment
The bulbs MUST be recycled, HD & other stores have free bins for drop off
Almost every store & commercial building for decades have had flourescent tubes - which contain Mercury
CFL stands for Compact Flourescent Light

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Old 10-14-2009, 12:48 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
This is quite FALSE
Overall with use CFL's put LESS Mercury into the environment
This due to the fact that producing electricty (usually) creates Mercury
Exception would be hydro/wind/photo voltaic produced power
So using 75% LESS electricity thus ends up being LESS Mercury in the environment
The bulbs MUST be recycled, HD & other stores have free bins for drop off
Almost every store & commercial building for decades have had flourescent tubes - which contain Mercury
CFL stands for Compact Flourescent Light

interesting. i do think we were talking about two different things though.

as i understand it the bulbs themselves have quite a bit of mercury in them (4mg per the graph.) i have never seen any numbers on mercury produced due to electricity usage, although they are some interesting numbers based on your chart.

it is entirely possible that what i read was wrong. the internet is full of nothing but the truth after all
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:04 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
This is quite FALSE
This due to the fact that producing electricty (usually) creates Mercury
So using 75% LESS electricity thus ends up being LESS Mercury in the environment
Hugh? Where in the World did you come up with the idea that electricity "creates" mercury---a heavy metal element (liquid at room temp)? I will forgive you though since you pushed for recycling CFLs. Add car switches, thermometers and anything else with mercury to the list. It is scary how much mercury is already in landfills. They have recently found that mercury gas escapes landfills horizontally, adding to the toxicity already known from it seeping into water supplies.

http://toxics.usgs.gov/highlights/uz...transport.html

If our solution to recycling CFLs is the same as it is with other heavy metal tech waste---1) sneak it on to ships and transport it under cover of darkness to 3rd World countries to be dealt with, or 2) grind it up and hide it under inert ingredient labeling laws for fertilizers---we are in deep trouble. Since there is no money in recycling the waste what else do we expect to happen with the stuff?

The good news is CFLs are a transitional technology at best. They will not be around for long as better replacements for them are in the wings and just needing refinement and to get production costs down.

Last edited by user1007; 10-14-2009 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:24 PM   #10
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Hugh? Where in the World did you come up with the idea that electricity "creates" an element? I will forgive you though since you pushed for recycling CFLs. Add car switches, thermometers and anything else with mercury to the list. It is scary how much mercury is already in landfills.

CFLs are a transitional technology at best. They will not be around for long as better replacements for them are in the wings just needing to get production costs down.
Try doing some research 1st, I have

Quote:
The Environmental Protection Agency reports that U.S. electric utilities released 48 tons of mercury in 1999, the latest year for which data are available. This comprises about 40 percent of manmade mercury emissions in the U.S., 10 percent of total North American emissions, and just 1 percent of total global mercury emissions.
http://www.mercuryanswers.org/plants.htm

Quote:
Mercury Emissions Up at Coal-Burning Power Plants

WASHINGTON, DC, November 21, 2008 (ENS) - The top 50 most-polluting coal-burning power plants in the United States emitted 20 tons of toxic mercury into the air in 2007, finds a new report from the nonprofit Environmental Integrity Project. Of the top 10 mercury emitting power plants, all but one reported an increase as compared to 2006.
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/nov2...-11-21-092.asp

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The nation’s coal-fired power plants produce 48 tons of it a year, a little more than 40 percent of the total mercury emitted in the United States.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/25/opinion/25sat1.html
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:02 PM   #11
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Discussion on CFL's, Mercury etc


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
This is quite FALSE
Overall with use CFL's put LESS Mercury into the environment
This due to the fact that producing electricty (usually) creates Mercury
Exception would be hydro/wind/photo voltaic produced power
So using 75% LESS electricity thus ends up being LESS Mercury in the environment
The bulbs MUST be recycled, HD & other stores have free bins for drop off
Almost every store & commercial building for decades have had flourescent tubes - which contain Mercury
CFL stands for Compact Flourescent Light


i'm curious how this figures in with pollution in the manufacturing process and the amount of energy used to manufacture and recycle each type of bulb. i would imagine it's a lot more complex in terms of materials, machines and manufacturing energy to make a cfl than it is to make an incandescent. so would the longer life make up for that complexity and would the environmental cost to recycle be considerably higher in terms of man hour and machine time?
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:52 PM   #12
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Try doing some research 1st, I have
I see nothing in your links about "creating" mercury as you claimed they do. They don't. They can't. Except in cheesy B level science fiction movies, maybe, mercury is a natural occurring heavy metal element with its own place on the periodic table. It is not "created" by electricity generation or anything else for that matter.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/elemen.../a/mercury.htm

As far as mercury "emissions" and "discharges" to the environment? That is a different story and not what you were originally suggesting. Electric power plants may very well give off mercury vapors and even mercury in liquid forms. They are not especially clean things to operate. Mercury has been used in electrical situations because it is an excellent conductor. It stands to reason the power plants would have a lot of it around integrated into lots of components like switches, sensors and things. Would using CFLs reduce the need for electricity enough to change the emission rates of power plants? Irrelevant. The components with mercury will not just go away (although they might leak less) because they are used less any more than not turning on CFLs or florescent tubes would reduce their mercury content. The only way to change the situation is to replace them with something else as is being done ever so slowly with automotive switches, and as mentioned with still pricey LED and other bulb alternatives. And we still have to dispose of the mercury and store it somewhere. It is slippery stuff and flows like water at room temperature. It is difficult to capture and contain. It is even tougher in gaseous form and of course the plants don't want to pay to contain it in any form. It is cheaper to pay the gutless EPA fines and risk the liability than to deal with it unless pushed up against the wall.

Oh, and by the way Dave. I was public information officer for one of the largest and most respected waste management facilities in the country. We did a lot of work with mercury and planning for its management. I have done my research. None of the scientists on our team would ever have suggested electricity creates mercury. You stand alone.

Last edited by user1007; 10-14-2009 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:22 PM   #13
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Then you should have known that creating electricty releases Mercury into the environment
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:08 PM   #14
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Never claimed it did not. I also never claimed that electricity creates mercury as you did.
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:10 PM   #15
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Right, then nothing creates Mercury & we don't need to worry about it at all
Since it has all existed already in the environment
Don't be a

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