Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > DIY Repair > General DIY Discussions

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-23-2009, 01:54 PM   #76
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 12
Rewards Points: 0
Share |
Default

"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??


Did you drill both holes outside, Inside, or one in and one outside?

ddodge is offline  
Old 02-23-2009, 06:07 PM   #77
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6
Rewards Points: 0
Default

"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??


My first attempt was with a 3/16" glass cutting bit for a drill. Big mistake. Just happened to buy some glass for our church and the glass man even said it would crack the glass. It did. I went slow and sprayed water, but I got impatient and cracked the glass.
Then I used a roto zip ceramic straight shaft bit, went at it at a 45 degree, with water spritzing, really slow. It took forever about 15 minutes. It worked. I drilled inside opposing corners as close as I could get to the edge considering the roto zip. Another person suggested that I buy a ball end dremmel diamond bit. I've checked them out on line for less than 10 dollars.
I am still a little confused about covering the holes. I think only one hole gets the vent and the other hole gets covered after the moisture is gone, otherwise little ants would cruise in. I have windows out in site and am hesitant to use my rotozip straight shaft ceramic bit, but the cracked window is out of sight. Hope this helps.
sckarsten@juno.com is offline  
Old 02-28-2009, 01:09 PM   #78
Newbie
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 6
Rewards Points: 0
Default

"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??


Well a lot of patinece and it worked. I haven't ordered the ball bit diamond dremmel bit and used my straight shaft ceramic drill bit with my rotozip. It took a long time, it took about 45 minutes for two holes. I had to go slow because this was a big window in my living room. I left the vents off the window to let it air out and let the moisture escape and then I'll put the vent on it. My question is.... Do the pros seal one hole and leave a vent on the other, or two vents on the both holes. Any ideas would be great.
sckarsten@juno.com is offline  
Old 03-13-2009, 01:44 PM   #79
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2
Rewards Points: 0
Thumbs up

"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??


Thank you, Dan. Our "problem" window is a large semi-circular one, with several metal ribs between the inner and outer panes. Moisture's been accumulating for years. The problem with replacing it (besides $$$) is that the window is embedded in the outside stucco and inside plaster, so walls would have to be torn open, and I don't know how weather-proof the repaired surfaces would be. Before finding this thread, I'd been thinking about making holes in the glass, but didn't know what to use, whether it would work, or whether it would just shatter the window (not a good idea in mid-winter).

Now that it's (almost) Spring, I used a variation of Dan's method: drilled two 1/8" holes through the interior pane, but had to put both at the bottom, because a hole at the top would have been very visible as well as hard to reach. Each hole took about 30 minutes, using a variety of diamond bits from that $6 kit at Amazon. More than half that time was spent pausing to let things cool off, and I occasionally wiped the glass and the bit with a damp sponge. Nothing cracked; I never used much pressure, so the Dremel mostly ran at full speed.

In an effort to keep bugs out while letting the window dry out, I cut 2-inch lengths of drinking straws that fit snugly into the holes, and wrapped Scotch tape around the loose ends of the straws, so that only a little of the tape was on the straws and the rest presented a sticky inside surface. (The sticky tape became an extension of the straw, providing a tunnel that has a sticky inside surface.) This is easy to remove and re-insert, lets air circulate a bit, and hopefully will trap any bugs or dust particles that enter the sticky passageway. The straws are stiff enough to insert and remove without collapsing from finger pressure; tape alone is not.

Since the holes are at the same level, there won't be any convection currents to circulate air through the window, so I've been blowing air into one hole with a low-pressure air-mattress inflator: remove one straw, partly cover the hole with the inflator nozzle, run it for a few seconds, remove and cover the hole with a finger until the air stops whistling out of the other hole; then repeat. I'm afraid to do this for more than 10-15 seconds at a time, because air pressure's clearly building up between the panes and I don't want to break the window. Even though I can feel air coming out of the uncovered hole while the pump is running, it takes almost as long for the pressure to return to normal as it took to pump air into the window. I do a few reps of this at a time, and a few sets a day. Works best when the window's warmed by the sun.

The holes were made two days ago and the pump's been used maybe 10-15 times since then. Originally, every section of the window showed moderate to severe condensation, but now, about half of the window looks clear and mostly or completely dry. The two triangular wedges at bottom-center still look very, very wet, so it'll take a while longer before I know how close to being completely successful this method is. I'll post an update sometime in the future.

When finished, I'll follow the rest of Dan's suggestion to cover the two holes with small pieces of clear packaging tape and make a few pinholes through the tape.

Again, thank you Dan.
Charlie Howard is offline  
Old 04-08-2009, 10:48 AM   #80
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 2
Rewards Points: 0
Default

"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??


Update on my earlier post: using a small air pump to blow air through the double-pane window eventually dried it out, but as soon as the blower was removed, the window started to fog again. The seals probably are too badly compromised for a lasting benefit. Also, this is a semi-circular window with internal struts and, consequently, a dozen semi-isolated compartments. That made it harder to dry out all of them.

Bottom line: Dan's method is excellent, but when the window is in really bad shape, only a replacement will solve the problem.
Charlie Howard is offline  
Old 05-05-2009, 11:28 AM   #81
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1
Rewards Points: 0
Default

"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??


A great thread, and some very inventive contributions.
I think I can clear up a couple of the unknowns.
Firstly, the inside or outside drilling question;
If you live in an area where you are in heating mode most of the year and hardly ever use A/C (like here in the UK), then it is only worthwhile drilling the outside. That is because the outside atmosphere has lower absolute humidity (less mass of water for a given volume of air) than the indoor air. What happens when the unit warms up is that the trapped air goes out of the small hole and the absolute humidity equalises with the outside eventually when the desiccant has dried out somewhat. It is known as vapour pressure equalisation. The air between the panes will always be a bit warmer than the outside air, lower relative humidity, so condensation will not form between the panes.
If you live in a hot humid region in cooling mode most of the year, it might work to drill the inside. In those conditions it will be lower absolute humidity inside the room than out of doors, and again the cavity will be a bit warmer so will not condense.
If you drill the hole the wrong side then comparatively warm humid air gets into the cavity and reaches a colder pane of glass and condensation forms. That may be the reason some people have reported the technique not working.

Secondly tempered glass:
The glass type question limits where you can use vapour pressure equalisation because, as many people have rightly said, you can't drill tempered glass, and it is often used as exterior lites. Polaroid sunglasses work fine to detect it; if you can't find a brand mark in a corner of the glass and you can't see a pattern of marks through the polaroids (or other polarising filters like 3d glasses, experiment with rotating the lens) then it is probably not tempered.

Hope this helps.
Doddy is offline  
Old 05-30-2009, 08:08 AM   #82
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 9
Rewards Points: 0
Default

"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??


Sure most of you used a garden hose to spray off your car or home windows and while wet, the windows were super clear. Just happened to play with a piece of glass from an old double pane argon filled E glass window. That E coating is on the inside of the glass, has a grit like feeling, no smooth like glass.

When spraying the E side with a garden hose with the glass laying on my deck, could barely see my deck as that window really became cloudy. I wiped that side with a clean rag, and when the sun hit it and it dried, it was crystal clear again, but just wiping the E coating with a damp rag, it clouded up like crazy again.

I flipped the glass over with the outside of it facing me, the smooth side, getting water on the outside of the glass does not cloud it up.

Has to be a reaction between that E coating and the slightest bit of moisture.

This particular window was from an old patio door, has a 3/4" thick aluminum frame with approximately 7/32" glass. Gathering in manufacturing that laid the glass on each side, E coating on the inside and some managed to either dip the edges in some kind of soft rubber. It was easy to cut around the sheet of glass from that assembly to remove the glass.

This particular window, foggy, had one tiny corner that was dipped or some kind of automatic applied rubber coating that wasn't properly applied leaving a very tiny crack in that rubber coating. That must be all it takes to have a foggy window.

Piece of glass was 30" wide and 75" high, I was handling it very carefully, but in haste, lifted it off my deck from the center letting the ends bend just a bit. The glass exploded like a bomb just like the side windows of your vehicle with thousands of bubble like pieces all over my deck. Would really think twice about drilling any kind of hole in it.

I found this old door panel at our garbage dump and took it home to play with it to see what I am in for with my own foggy patio doors. I can remove the glass panel, but without a factory, really doubt if I could repair mine. I called my door company, they want 415 bucks for just the glass panel, but only 350 bucks for a new door panel with the glass installed, this whole country is crazy with replacement parts, cheaper to buy new than to buy parts anymore.

Thinking now just about replacing the entire door, we live in a throwaway society today. Looking at a lot of new windows, even with one broken pane of glass, you have to replace the entire window. Now I am interested in learning how more effective these argon filled windows are instead of the old fashion single pane windows with storms, least those could be repaired.

If you have kids, do not buy them a baseball.
NickD is offline  
Old 06-01-2009, 08:19 AM   #83
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 9
Rewards Points: 0
Default

"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??


Guy said take it, also had a bottle of Windex and roll of paper towels to make sure it was clear.

Practiced removing the glass from the old frame, that was chopped up for firewood using a razor blade on the inside without hurting the wood.

In inspecting the glass, that rubber seal was perfect at the sides and the top of the glass, but just starting to separate at the bottom. The seal between the molding and the glass wasn't exactly perfect at the point and suspect water is dripping down into the frame.

This gives me a hint to check all my other good windows and doors for leaks at the bottom of the frame. My guess is that water that does get in freezes and is disturbing that rubber seal. Thinking about a thin bead of silicon at the base of each window after a good cleaning.

My door, the door I wrecked, and this one all seem to have the same problem with that rubber seal between the glass and internal aluminum frame at the bottom of the window, that's three out of three.

Perhaps an ounce of prevention will save all of my other windows and doors.

Met a man with young kids that recently purchased a home, ironically new in 1985 just like my home with cloudy windows. Hired a contractor, with these flanged windows, all of the siding had to be removed, but since his was plastic, would crack so all that had to be replaced. Also they couldn't find the exact size, so had to modify the rough opening. I didn't ask him what he paid, but you can assume he not only has his primary mortgage but a second mortgage as well.

I look at the way they are building homes today, pure crap, and wonder if that couple of extra bucks you may save in energy costs is really worth this extra expense.

It's seems perfectly stupid to me they are making doors and windows where you can't even replace the glass. That is stupid, stupid, stupid.
NickD is offline  
Old 06-04-2009, 03:34 PM   #84
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 9
Rewards Points: 0
Default

"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??


South facing windows are my major problem, but do have a large white pine tree blocking the sun on eight panels, they are okay. Kitchen is my next challenge, and is hit directly by the sun. They want 154 bucks for just the glass, and only another 30 for the complete panel with the glass installed, so I ordered those.

If I did order just the glass, would be a challenge just to change it, the four frame pieces are mitered over that glass and all glued together, heck of a lot easier to glue something than to take it apart.

Got to thinking about the good old single pane windows and storms, all can be cleaned. But what is the cheapest way to get an equivalent of a single pane window and a storm window?

Simple, just slap two pieces of glass in the same frame. Call it energy efficient and charge a bundle for it. Believe that is where we are today.
NickD is offline  
Old 06-19-2009, 05:00 PM   #85
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1
Rewards Points: 0
Default

"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??


I "drilled" one hole in a foggy window by grinding. I'm in no rush, so we'll see how that one hole works by itself, and I'll repost..

I used a 30,000RPM Dremel and a "Dremel Silicone Carbide Rotary Tool Grinding Stone". Item #94739 at Lowes, and it costs about $3 bucks. It took less than ten minutes, the tool never bucked, and I never felt like I wasn't in control. I didn't use any kind of sprayer for cooling while grinding, and the hole is clean on the inside and outside edges. Don't push too hard, just let the tool do the work and take away the unwanted material.

Just had a few thoughts to share here...

If you do this, making the hole(s) inside the house is the only way it should be done in my opinion, for several reasons.

First off, you want the windows to keep your house warm or cool. Hopefully, the air in your house is cooler than the outside air in Summer, and warmer than the outside air in Winter. By opening a small hole on the interior of your double pane glass, you are exposing it to the flow (or convection) of air. This minimal flow of your indoor air into the window is still going to push the hot or cold temperature out and a little bit further away from you, thus keeping you warm in Winter and cool in Summer. This is my theory anyway... I think that's why you could feel such a temperature difference in your testing Dan.

Think of it like those expensive heated windows they have for Winter. Instead of electrical energy being used to warm the glass and keep the cold away from you, you're using the power of convective air flow from the heat in your house to warm the interior of the window and keep the cold further from you.

Secondly, if you make these holes outside they are subject to filling with water in a heavy rain.

Thirdly, think of a strong rain followed by a cold snap. A window even slightly full of water is likely to break as that water expands from freezing.

Fourth, if you put the holes outside, you are bringing the outdoor temperature that much closer to you inside. Thus, pretty much negating having a second pane of glass at all.

Thanks to everyone for contributing to a very helpful and interesting thread!
Testers is offline  
Old 06-30-2009, 12:22 PM   #86
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2
Rewards Points: 0
Default

"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??


hi i am not advertising but giving some advice which i defiantly know about as i have been doing this for 4 years now

there are many presumptions with drilling glass and venting

first of all IT DOES WORK

tools/parts needed

1 dremmel mains or battery
2 diamond burr(drill) cylinder type
3 water sprayer
4 valves

i am obviously not go into the full process of repairing DGU's but here is a brief out line if you want more info you can of course contact me if admin and moderators of this forum don't mind

you drill 2 holes in the glass from the outside in opposite corners through 1 lite of course then you apply valves the valves are not too ready available but i know where sorry this part doesn't help much but as i said i am not advertising just helping out

these so called valves shelter the hole from driving rain and of course stops water getting between glass

the effectiveness of the r value of your DGU is hardly altered and no figures are out as yet

i short the small amount of cold air that enters the DGU is quickly warmed up by either sunlight or indoor heating

i have done 1000,s units and no complaints

hope this help some who doubt and encourages some further
mistaway is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to mistaway For This Useful Post:
AB5YZ (04-02-2011)
Old 07-27-2009, 11:21 AM   #87
vanoricj
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: SW Ontario
Posts: 1
Rewards Points: 0
Default

"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??


I had about 10 windows defogged 6-7 yrs ago. They are still clean and clear. My cost was only about 10% of replacement cost. I was thrilled with the results and would recommend this option as the best choice vs replacement (not environmenmentally friendly) and status quo as people hate the asthetics of a foggy window.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NickD View Post
" You need new windows."

Thought this was a DIY board with real tips, am a retired engineer, not one of those guys that sat behind a desk, have a complete metal, wood, and electronics shop and like to do everything myself. For one thing, a means to beat the credit card companies and the IRS, if some guy is charging you 70 bucks an hour for something you can do yourself, you actually end up paying over twice the price as you are using post tax dollars, and if you have to pay interest, just another slap in your pocket book. I built my own home in 1970 while carrying on a full time job, with good buying and hard work, had it paid off in three years. Also do all my own vehicle work, but do have my Ram reflashed now at the dealer, not about to pay $7,500.00 for the equipment required just for a particular brand of vehicle. Think this reflashing is crazy.

Another thing that is crazy is argon filled windows, I had to sell my own built home because of a job change and purchased my present home in 1985, it's paid off, been for, for some time, take good care of it, but also sharing your problems with foggy windows, I have six out of 45 panes that are foggy, was only four last year, two more this year.

Saving 60 t0 70% off the cost of new windows doesn't sound very good to me to have some guy come out to my home and make a mess out of it. Drilling a couple of holes is no big deal, I have the tools to get those holes to within +/- 0.0001" if I have to but they refuse to sell me those check valves. Then they claim to use a proprietary cleaning solution, what? Soap and water? Maybe even denatured alcohol, I have both air compressors, shop vacuums, and even a good sized vacuum pump and can experiment if need be. They talk about silica jel, I don't see that stuff in my windows.

And I don't throw away my dirty dishes either.

I feel like I was ripped off, not only by Koebe & Koebe that has no solutions, you are out of warranty, twenty years ago, they would sell direct to me, now it's strictly going to some lumber company that doesn't even have a parts book. They tell me to bring a window in and leave it there for a couple of weeks until the no-nothing rep comes around, how stupid do people think I and the rest of us are? And then to have to pay a huge markup on that stuff.

We are sure getting ripped off by these tax credits and DOE regulations, I checked into the R value of argon filled windows as opposed to solid insulated double thickness glass, the difference was infinitestmal. Maybe a guy would save a couple of bucks a year in fuel cost, but after the warranty would have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars for window replacements. And real insulated glass is neither recommended nor eligilible for a tax credit. Something is very fishy here, of course, real insulated glass won't leak.

Then there is the building inspector to deal with, believe the main requirement to get these jobs besides being a brother-in-law to the mayor is to have an IQ less than 1.998. Ran into this about replacing the hot water heater, wanted to install one of these new high effeciency forced ventilated heaters. First I can't install one in the basement because the snow may getter higher than the PVC vents, but why to you permit forced ventilated furnaces in the basement? Duh!!! And why can't I raise these cheap pipes a couple of feet? Besides with my overhangs, no snow every gets near the house anyway. You just can't do that. But after finding about all the problems with these heaters, extra electrical, failure of the control mechanism, but to top everything else off including one a one year warranty on the Chinese made electronic garbage, they only save 20 therms per year at an initial installation cost of several hundreds more.

Where is the savings in either these water heaters or argon filled windows? It's stupid and downright criminal to the home owner, and what about the guy with a 30 year mortgage and every increasing property taxes and interest rates? Work your can off just to end up with a pile of junk?

There has to be a way where a guy can clean and reclaim these windows, after 23 years, they still look new, except for that stupid fog in between the glasses. If I find anything, and I am looking, will let you know, already thought about painting them black.
vanoricj is offline  
Old 07-31-2009, 12:06 PM   #88
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Graceton PA
Posts: 27
Rewards Points: 0
Default

"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??


I have read a few comments on this subject. Quite interesting. In the comments that state that this system works, did the fogged unit have low e coating? Was it a hard coat or soft coat? Low e is a micro thin metallic material. In the soft coats, the failed unit, due to the presence of moisture begin to oxydize(rust). Just curious as how this is handled.
thanks for the input.
fenestrationman is offline  
Old 08-08-2009, 08:06 AM   #89
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 9
Rewards Points: 0
Default

"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??


Our problem is only on the windows facing south, I did buy new casement panels for our kitchen window, was 150 bucks just for the glass, 180 for the glass with new frames, but those have to be varnished. Needed two of those. Did the frames as well, now it looks like a brand new window. That gave me the old panels to play with.

Unlike what the Kolbe rep told me, I was able to unsnap the exterior plastic moldings by using a heat gun. Unlike our patio door that had both moisture and e-glass cloudiness, these panels were perfectly sealed. I played with all kinds of window cleaners, only thing that works is a polishing compound with an electric buffer, but still not perfect. Then the problem of resealing the windows again. Kitchen window is the worse, but would cost me another 1800 bucks to replace all the windows with new panels on the south facing wall plus will be getting new weather stripping with it. Easiest and most reliable thing for me to do, is to replace them, one by one. It only take a couple of minutes to replace the panels.

Find this U-factor crazy, the reciprocal of R factor with an R factor range of from 1 to 3, they are all poor compared to an R-22 wall, but claim they are energy efficient. Just fraction of an improvement with argon filled windows compared to dry air. But don't read about how much energy you will save over a ten year span. But sure are going into a hole if you have to replace them. Wife saw a home with a two story great room she liked with floor to ceiling argon filled windows, said I don't think we would want that. She agreed. And read the fine print on the warranty. Baseballs are excluded. Couldn't find the U-factor on good old fashion storms, had those in our last home, was easy to replace both the glass, and to clean them.

Feel we live in a era of BS, son's high energy savings furnace blower went out after 13 mounts, 1/2 HP just like my 25 year old motor. Got a new piece of crap under warranty, they never varnished the stator windings if you can believe that that caused rubbing of the magnet wire shorting it out. Bought along my power analyser, is new motor was pulling 400 watts under no load, where my old Made in the USA motor only pulls 75 watts. This is a sign of undersized magnet wire and over saturated magnetics, but yet, his is energy efficient where mine is not. It's all BS, and especially from our government.
NickD is offline  
Old 08-21-2009, 10:26 AM   #90
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1
Rewards Points: 0
Default

"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??


WOW, what a great thread!!

I just bought a 17 year old house in winterpeg.
All the windows are tri-panes (glass sandwich made of three sheets with two spacers in the middle).
Here, in winterpeg, we have extreme cold. The temperature in the winter can go down to -40 celsius (-15 farenheit)

Two of the windows have fog.

Should i drill also the middle glass to allow ventilation in the two empty cavities?

Thanks!!

pplui is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Casement versus double hung windows Sammy Carpentry 7 03-15-2007 08:21 AM
Double pane window installation asuka Carpentry 1 02-06-2007 02:42 AM
How do I install new windows? RickT Carpentry 17 10-12-2006 06:06 PM
Double Paned Windows cambece Remodeling 5 10-04-2006 03:31 PM
how to clean double pain windows DIYER33 General DIY Discussions 3 04-12-2005 11:53 AM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.