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"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??

593K views 133 replies 57 participants last post by  Nathan 
#1 ·
I posted on another home forum about removing the condensation between the panes in my two 51" x 61" picture windows. I bought the house in December when there wasn't much condensation, but now it's pretty bad. The people who responded to post noted that I'd have to have the glass replaced entirely. That's looking to be around $700 - $800. But I saw a Yellow Pages add that advertised a company that could defog windows. So I started reading about it on the internet (which always requires scrutiny and skepticism) and there are a number of companies saying that, in many situations, windows can be defogged.

Here are a few:

http://www.defogit.com/
http://www.defogusa.com/HowItWorks.html
http://www.wcofa.com/
http://www.ccwwi.com/Default.html

Here's an article in the Ottawa newspaper about it:
http://www.ccwwi.com/images/Ottawa_Citizen_Article.pdf

Is this defogging process truly possible? effective? Anybody tried it?

BTW, the person who used to own this house is no longer living and I can't find out who installed the windows. AFGD is stamped inside the window and I talked to the local dealer of this glass manufacturing company. They said I'd have to find the contractor who installed the windows to initiate any warranty that may be valid on the windows .... basically a dead end for me.

Hoping for an inexpensive solution, but trying to be realistic....

Alex Z
Knoxville, TN
 
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#88 ·
I have read a few comments on this subject. Quite interesting. In the comments that state that this system works, did the fogged unit have low e coating? Was it a hard coat or soft coat? Low e is a micro thin metallic material. In the soft coats, the failed unit, due to the presence of moisture begin to oxydize(rust). Just curious as how this is handled.
thanks for the input.
 
#89 ·
Our problem is only on the windows facing south, I did buy new casement panels for our kitchen window, was 150 bucks just for the glass, 180 for the glass with new frames, but those have to be varnished. Needed two of those. Did the frames as well, now it looks like a brand new window. That gave me the old panels to play with.

Unlike what the Kolbe rep told me, I was able to unsnap the exterior plastic moldings by using a heat gun. Unlike our patio door that had both moisture and e-glass cloudiness, these panels were perfectly sealed. I played with all kinds of window cleaners, only thing that works is a polishing compound with an electric buffer, but still not perfect. Then the problem of resealing the windows again. Kitchen window is the worse, but would cost me another 1800 bucks to replace all the windows with new panels on the south facing wall plus will be getting new weather stripping with it. Easiest and most reliable thing for me to do, is to replace them, one by one. It only take a couple of minutes to replace the panels.

Find this U-factor crazy, the reciprocal of R factor with an R factor range of from 1 to 3, they are all poor compared to an R-22 wall, but claim they are energy efficient. Just fraction of an improvement with argon filled windows compared to dry air. But don't read about how much energy you will save over a ten year span. But sure are going into a hole if you have to replace them. Wife saw a home with a two story great room she liked with floor to ceiling argon filled windows, said I don't think we would want that. She agreed. And read the fine print on the warranty. Baseballs are excluded. Couldn't find the U-factor on good old fashion storms, had those in our last home, was easy to replace both the glass, and to clean them.

Feel we live in a era of BS, son's high energy savings furnace blower went out after 13 mounts, 1/2 HP just like my 25 year old motor. Got a new piece of crap under warranty, they never varnished the stator windings if you can believe that that caused rubbing of the magnet wire shorting it out. Bought along my power analyser, is new motor was pulling 400 watts under no load, where my old Made in the USA motor only pulls 75 watts. This is a sign of undersized magnet wire and over saturated magnetics, but yet, his is energy efficient where mine is not. It's all BS, and especially from our government.
 
#90 ·
WOW, what a great thread!!

I just bought a 17 year old house in winterpeg.
All the windows are tri-panes (glass sandwich made of three sheets with two spacers in the middle).
Here, in winterpeg, we have extreme cold. The temperature in the winter can go down to -40 celsius (-15 farenheit)

Two of the windows have fog.

Should i drill also the middle glass to allow ventilation in the two empty cavities?

Thanks!!
 
#91 · (Edited)
I am sure this thread is long and dead, but I just drilled out a badly condensed kitchen window and thought I would share that process and ask a few questions at the same time.

I didn't have any of the stuff required, so I had to buy drill, bits, tubing, syringe, etc. My total cost was something like $15. This is why:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94076

That dude right there will put holes in your windows without having to buy an $80 dremmel. I am sure this won't last as long as a dremmel, but it sure spins faster and strong enough to bore out glass. It comes with the diamond bits as well.

I set the dremmel in place on the upper-left corner (inside) and began drilling with the cone shaped bit. It took about 5 minutes to come through and made a 2mm hole (roughly). Then I did the bottom right corner (inside). 10 mins and $10 later, I had access to the cavity of my double-pane window.

Mind you the window had so much vapor in it that it was constantly wet. It literally looked like my double-pane was a single pane on a rainy day. I took my syringe and stuck it in the hole and shot 10ml of windex right into some condensation. Bang, instant clarity. That was the end of that because my syringe only shot maybe 6 inches in this 29" pane of glass. I decided to hunt down 1/8"OD tubing...heh.

NO SUCH ANIMAL EXISTS IN MY PART OF THE WORLD. I couldn't find it to save my life. I thought either I'd have to just fill up the window or make the hole bigger. Instead I got some of this:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98073 except in 1/4" variety and heated it. using its 2:1 shrink ration, I got my 1/8" tubing relatively easy. I ran it in the window and sprayed most what I could reach. The problem I have is my window has crossbracing and this stops the spray and tubing from going past halfway in the window. Next step is to flood the window and drain it.

My question to you all is how long did it take after cleaning for the condensation to dissappear? I let mine sit all weekend and it really didn't change. I did make the holes a little bigger tonight (probably 3/16"). These defogging companies state they make 2mm holes, a tad bigger than 1/8" I suppose. I figure this is worth a shot considering i'm only out $14 and the time spent vs a $120 window. Thoughts?
 
#93 ·
Going to give this a try...

I'm going to give this a try on this guy:



Has anyone used a variable speed drill with a 3/16" cobalt and tungsten carbide tip drill bit? I don't have a dremel, but do have those 2 pieces of equipment.

The last thing I want to do is crack this puppy and make it look even worse than it already does. If a dremel is a requirement over a drill I'm happy to go and buy one.

Thanks in advance, and once again, great thread! :)
 
#94 ·
Let me strongly suggest you get one of those $9 rotary drills from Harbor Freight. You'll need the speed to cleanly drill through the glass. I though about using my regular drill to through glass but it looked harder to control and a little less precise. It took about 4 mins per hole with that Harbor Freight tool.

BTW, my window has cleared completely. it took about 1 week to do so. Now off to find "valves"...probably 3M gause tape.

I'm going to give this a try on this guy:



Has anyone used a variable speed drill with a 3/16" cobalt and tungsten carbide tip drill bit? I don't have a dremel, but do have those 2 pieces of equipment.

The last thing I want to do is crack this puppy and make it look even worse than it already does. If a dremel is a requirement over a drill I'm happy to go and buy one.

Thanks in advance, and once again, great thread! :)
 
#96 ·
Thanks!

Thanks for the reply, I actually found an old black and decker rotary tool ( dremel like ) that I got as a gift about 10 years ago and promptly forgot about. I bought a $3 dremel bit from Home Depot and made 2 holes in opposing corners of the window.

It was no problem at all, each hole took about 10-15 mins, I used little to no pressure and let the tool do the work, the holes are really clean.

I'll wait for the window to defog and then decide if I need to clean it with a syringe before adding some kind of valve / tape solution.

Thanks again for a great thread, I'll post pics of my process start to finish once I'm done.
 
#97 ·
Thanks for the reply, I actually found an old black and decker rotary tool ( dremel like ) that I got as a gift about 10 years ago and promptly forgot about. I bought a $3 dremel bit from Home Depot and made 2 holes in opposing corners of the window.

It was no problem at all, each hole took about 10-15 mins, I used little to no pressure and let the tool do the work, the holes are really clean.

I'll wait for the window to defog and then decide if I need to clean it with a syringe before adding some kind of valve / tape solution.

Thanks again for a great thread, I'll post pics of my process start to finish once I'm done.
I should have made pics of mine. I am astounded with the results. I literally had water droplet running down between my panes. It looked like someone was getting up before me every day and spraying inside the window pane with a garden hose. 1 week later and absolutely no moisture. One thing I will recommend is that you let all the moisture in there dry out before trying to clean. Had I done this, I wouldn't have to clean it out now. I actually inserted more junk in the window than was originally there.
 
#98 ·
Quick update...

Drilled my holes with no problem and waited 9 days...so far the fogging in the window has not really improved, it's changed ( got better, then worse ) a few times, but overall is not improved.

Next stop is to make the drilled holes larger I think...any other advice?

Thanks!
 
#99 ·
Drilled my holes with no problem and waited 9 days...so far the fogging in the window has not really improved, it's changed ( got better, then worse ) a few times, but overall is not improved.

Next stop is to make the drilled holes larger I think...any other advice?

Thanks!
I'd wait more. Mine took about 15 days. If you make the holes bigger, you can't make them smaller again.
 
#100 ·
No love...

Well, sadly this isn't working for me. I've tried making the holes larger which helped initially. However, the window seems to be in a perpetual state of gradual defogging which is most pronounced in the areas closest to the holes, then next morning back to square one.

Not sure if there's anything else I can try before I bite the expensive new pane bullet - I really hoped this would work. :)

The holes I have are a little over 1/8 of an inch in the top right / bottom left of the window, not sure if I could make them any bigger. I guess the size of the window could be a problem, it's a big one, I'm guessing 5ft tall and 2ft wide.

Any other ideas are greatly appreciated! :)
 
#101 ·
Did you ever find a solution to your fog problem in the windows? I have the same thing and refuse to pay some idiot a ton of money for something simple. I got the drilling 2mm holes part, but what do I use to clean the inside? I hope you found something that works, because these defogging companies are a total rip off!!
Sue
 
#102 ·
susanhough - this didn't really work for me, I suspect that my window is too large for the process - it's about 5ft tall by 2ft wide. It has worked for plenty of people though so I would give it a shot for sure, nothing to lose if you do it carefully.

I currently have 2 holes in my window ( both about 1/8 inch diameter ), one top right, one bottom left. Does anyone think this may work better for such a large window if I open up 2 more holes so I have 1 hole in each of the 4 corners? Maybe open 2 more on each side halfway up also? As it stands right now the window is still well fogged after at least 3 weeks of having the original 2 holes opened.

Any help is very gratefully received. Anyone? Anyone? :)
 
#108 ·
I currently have 2 holes in my window ( both about 1/8 inch diameter ), one top right, one bottom left. Does anyone think this may work better for such a large window if I open up 2 more holes so I have 1 hole in each of the 4 corners? Maybe open 2 more on each side halfway up also? As it stands right now the window is still well fogged after at least 3 weeks of having the original 2 holes opened.

Any help is very gratefully received. Anyone? Anyone? :)
Do you have a work horse shop light? I am thinking that the volume of air inside a window that size may not be venting effectively thus leaving the higher humidity values inside the window. I am thinking out loud here, and don't want to cause any damage, but I am thinking that you point a very bright shop light toward the bottom hole. I wouldn't get the light to close to the glass, just aimed at the side and bottom of the window pane. Heating the inside of the pane would 1) cause the air inside to expand and force more air exchange, especially out of the top hole. 2) the heated air would drop the relative humidity and vaporize the remaining condesation, hopefully venting it out the top hole.

Just some thoughts from a meteorologist and former contractor! Good luck.
 
#103 ·
I got suckered earlier this month by them and have placed a claim with PayPal.
 
#104 ·
I have been following this post for a while now and I am still skeptical as to how this is accomplished. I had replied a while back see below.

I have read a few comments on this subject. Quite interesting. In the comments that state that this system works, did the fogged unit have low e coating? Was it a hard coat or soft coat? Low e is a micro thin metallic material. In the soft coats, the failed unit, due to the presence of moisture begin to oxydize(rust). Just curious as how this is handled.
Thanks for the input.
 
#105 ·
Got my refund from PayPal today:) too!
 
#106 ·
I might have a source. PM me...
 
#111 ·
Again:
I might have a source. PM me...
 
#113 ·
Defogging double-pane windows

I haven't tried it yet, but I believe a window could be quickly defogged by filling a small cylinder (about 1" diameter by 6" long) with silica gel and attaching tubing to each end. Insert one end of the tubing into one of the holes in the glass and supply air to the other end of the cylinder. A small air compressor or manual pump could be used. A simple squeeze bulb could also be used, but it would need to be disconnected for refilling each time. BE CAREFUL TO NOT OVER PRESSURIZE THE SPACE BETWEEN THE GLASS. Even a small pressure will exert a large force on the large area of glass. Some filter material, such as cotton, should be placed in the downstream end of the cylinder to prevent any of the silica gel from being expelled. All moisture will be removed from the supply air, and the very dry air should remove the moisture from the window. Silica gel can usually be purchased at a crafts store. "Indicating" large-grain silica gel is best so you can tell when it is saturated with moisture. The indicating material usually changes color from blue to pink as it picks up moisture. The saturated silica gel can be regenerated by drying in a microwave oven.
 
#114 ·
Searching for Defogging valves

Hi All,
I've been searching for valves and sieves companies for awhile and I came up with this one, Defogsupplies but they are a bit pricey. They sell the 1/2" valves in cards of 25 for $150 and the sieves for $112.50. Don't know anything else about the company (good or bad) so you're on your own.
I'll continue my search. Good Luck.
 
#115 ·
popped seals

While it's true that some companies are having some success "removing the fog" out of leaking IGU's. they will tell you that only 50% of the glass units they run into can be cleaned up and if it's etched with mineral deposits from the condensation you are out of luck.

Glass breakage while drilling, repeat visits for second applications, etc. are commonplace I am told by a franchisor. While I was intrigued enough to research the process, I decided that I would stay the course and replace a bad IGU instead.

A qualified glazing contractor can replace the glass unit for much less than replacing the window and give you a 10 year warranty on the IGU and a longer warranty period on a ETCC glass unit to boot.

While you can experiment with one way valves to let the moisture escape. it seems to me that a new glass unit will win hands down, while looking and performing better than the "defogging" method.
 
#116 ·
"ETCC glass unit"

Define that for us.

So let me understand: you're saying that the inside surfaces of an IGU become etched (with acid rain, I presume) and can't be cleaned? How does the acid water or vapour get in there in sufficient amount to etch glass?

Mineral deposits come from hard water...Why wouldn't mineral deposits be removable? are they resistant to acids where you are? I know it would be difficult, especially in IGUs but that doesn't mean they're permanent.

Sure a $500 IGU would look better than a $125 visit from a defogger but not everyone has the same standards. That's why dollar stores exist and why they still make Rolls-Royce cars to move people from A to B...

"Chacun a son gout" as they say in German.
 
#117 · (Edited)
What I am saying ccarlisle is, the residue left from the moisture in IGU's dries and bakes in the sun. You will notice a whitish looking stain on surface 2 or 3 or both. This residue which is deposits in the moisture cannot be removed by the defogging method. The main reason is they cook inside the glass unit and get crusty, nevermind the damage it also causes the glass surface. It is my understanding that the success rate of defogging the IGU depends on when you apply it. If you draw the drapes and wait too long the technology doesn't work. It also, in my estimation, will not work if one of the pieces of glass delaminates from the spacer which happens all the time. Can you clean it off? One company has a little magnet and they stick a scraping tool in the IGU and you move it with an exterior magnet on surface 1 or 4 and it gets some of it off. It's the same as cleaning an aquarium interior surface with that sponge magnet deal. Those of you that ever had or has an aquaruim know what I mean.

It's not a question of dollar store vs Macey's or Rolls Royce vs Carolla. It's a question of the right thing to do vs the wrong thing to do for a particular application. I don't think "Chacun a son gout" is the deal. It is not a matter of personal preference. It's a matter of what is going to work over the long haul.

By the way, ETCC is Energy Tax Credit Compliant glass. This glass has a SHGC of.30 or less and a Ufactor of .30 or less.
 
#118 · (Edited)
OK, fixawindow, I hear ya! The whitish mineral salts are calcium and magnesium salts from hard water vapour that leaks into the IGU around the spacers. We have only slightly hard water up here so we don't see that problem as much and even if we did, it would be hard to dissolve them. How did they get those magnetic sponges into the IGU?

Boy, a lot of people would be broke if the "right thing to do" was the only criteria for doing something. Sure wearing a $1000 Georgio Armani suit is -in some circles - the "right" thing to do but nowhere is there any definition of the "right thing". This isn't wiring an electrical panel, or plumbing a gas water heater - this is making a choice between a $125 item and a $500 item. Every man has his thing, and hopefully all we can do is educate the buyer into the choices that are out there.

If I bring up all the disadvantages to doing a defogging job and all the advantages of replacing the complete IGU or window, then present the $$ involved, I'd still get alot of business.

My analogy about the cars was just that: I can present all the advantages of driving to your mother-in-laws Sunday dinner in $140,000 Silver Shadow, and then the disadvantages of going in a Rambler and my Rambler would still be used. No accounting for taste! LOL:laughing:

You seem to have good knowledge on all this; hope you'll stick around!

PS: Thanks for the "ETCC" clarification; don't know if we have the same thing up here.
 
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