"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick?? - Page 3 - DIY Chatroom

d.a.n · 07-16-2008, 10:35 AM

That's a good plan.

However, any strategy should include something covering the hole, even if it is gas-permeable, in order to keep insects from getting inside (between) the window panes.

It will take a few weeks to try all of the combinations, but I'll let ya'll know what happens, since I have 17 windows to work with.

Worst case, the windows have to be replaced anyway, so there's not much reason to not try to fix the existing fogged-up windows.

Here's another issue: tempered versus non-tempered glass. Drilling into tempered glass will shatter it. It's hard to tell what is tempered or non-tempered glass. So I tried using a camera flash to see if there was any difference. The first photo below is a non-tempered window (one I've already drilled). The second is a shower-door that I know is tempered glass, but there are no markings on it to identify it as being tempered glass. Notice the strange pattern on the tempered glass? But I'm not sure that is a definitive determination. Does anyone know of an easy way (aside from a $350 to $500 tempered glass detector) of detecting tempered glass?

Thanks!

NON-TEMPERED GLASS:

TEMPERED GLASS:

Aron in Toronto · 07-17-2008, 11:58 AM

I recently spec'd Pella window for a job in NM and they all had small aluminum vent tubes to equalize the pressure inside the units during transportation from the manufacturing plant to the job site. The tubes are supposed to be trimmed off by the installer, but It seems like there is a big opportunity for mistakes if the installer is not up to speed. The thermal units were supposed to be "sealed" but perhaps that doesn't mean what the average person on the street would think sealed means.

Brik · 07-17-2008, 12:45 PM

Dan, what you did with the flash is interesting. Even more interesting is if its definitive. Your best bet in determining tempered or not would be based on location and age. In my newer house - All door glass is tempered and I have two windows above a soaking tub that are tempered. I'm not sure about the side lights on the door. I suspect they are too. That's it as far as I know. In an older house it would likely be less places.

d.a.n · 07-17-2008, 01:00 PM

Brik, Thanks. I have a back door (24 years old) that I thought would be tempered, but it does not produce the same star-burst flash pattern that the shower-door did (which I know is tempered glass). What I need to do is take some more flash-photos of windows that I know are tempered and non-tempered. If it is definitive, it will be cheaper than buying a $350-to-$500 glass-detector. Those glass detectors display different colored LEDs for tempered-glass, and same-colored LEDs for non-tempered-glass. Thus, it appears that tempered glass is causing some prism-like distortions, due to the high-heat treatment (versus annealing) of the glass at the factory.

By the way, I took several photos of the same glass panes (in macro; i.e. close-up mode, and at night when it was dark outside), and the patterns are consisitent in all photos. The tempered glass photos always produce a strange granular, star-burst pattern (as shown above). None of the photos of non-tempered glass produce that distorted pattern. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone else sees the same thing.

P.S. Nice web-site: http://www.handyguyspodcast.com/

oberon · 07-17-2008, 10:21 PM

d.a.n.

Any tempered lites should have a logo, or bug, in one corner that identifies them as tempered. If there is no bug, then the glass should not be tempered.

Of course if the bug is covered or for some reason not there, then you have a mess of timy glass fragments to contend with.

Tempered glass has an outer compression and inner tension layer that act together to make tempered glass what it is. I have never heard of checking tempered glass by using a flash as you did, but I am intrigued enough by your pictures to do some testing to see if I can reproduce your results. Very interesting; thanks for the idea.

If you have polarized sunglasses, try looking at the windows while wearing
them. Tempered class produces a "rainbow pattern" under polarized light, but it is not always easy to see.

d.a.n · 07-18-2008, 06:26 PM

I'll have to see if I have any polarized sun glasses.
If not, they shouldn't be very expensive.
Almost anything would be cheaper than $350-to-$500 for an electronic tempered-glass detector.

I didn't see any logo or bug on the glass, but it may be hidden by the surrounding encasement holding the glass.

I just received the one-way valves in the mail. I'm going to try those out next on the windows I already drilled holes in (which expelled the fog and water drops), to see if the fog returns.

d.a.n · 07-20-2008, 07:28 PM

OK. I put some silicone caulk with some pin holes in the windows.
They have not yet fogged up again.
I'm going to give it a while.

JoeBeta · 07-31-2008, 11:44 AM

I recently bought a new home with its share of foggy windows and eagerly await further D.A.N. posts. I will be experimenting myself in the fall and will post my results as well then.

d.a.n · 08-01-2008, 10:35 AM

JoeBeta,

I think we have a solution.
Drilling holes and letting the window breath eliminates the fog.
One some windows, it can take about a week for the fog to dissappear.
After sealing the holes in the windows with clear silicone caulk with tiny holes made with a sharp needle, the windows did not fog up again.

However, removing the caulk, once applied, was not easy, since I put a little too much caulk in the hole. The reason I want to be able to remove the seal is in case the window fogs up again. I want an easy and inexpensive replacement seal for the two holes in each window. Therefore, I next tried a thick, clear piece of adhesive tape (used for sealing packages) cut in a small circle about a quarter inch in diameter, with small pin holes poked into the tape with a sharp needle. So far, the window has not fogged up again, and the tape with tiny holes can be removed and/or replaced if necessary, and it is barely noticeable.

The next thing I'm going to try is washing the inside of the window.
A few of my windows have streaks due to not only fog, but water drops.
In some windows, after all of the moisture disappeared, there were some streaks. Therefore, I'm going to use a water-pik (except using alcohol instead of water) to wash the inside of the window, and a wet/dry shop-vac to vacuum out the water, allow enough time for all of the moisture to evaporate, and then reseal with small pieces of clear packing tape.

Also, I suspect the small pieces of perforated tape may yellow or age over time, but fortunately, the tape is cheap and easy to remove (i.e. with a flat razor blade) and replace.

Also, I have not done all of my windows yet, but I have not seen any change in my electricity usage (KiloWatts Per Hour). But here's something interesting and unexpected. I had two windows side by side. One was still fogged up, and one had holes drilled into it. When the hot afternoon sun was shining on both windows, the fogged window (with no holes) was noticeably warmer to the touch than the window with two holes drilled into it. All I can think of to explain that is the water vapor must be lowering the R-value of the fogged window, because I don't think much heat-transfer can be occurring through the tiny holes covered with perforated clear tape. At any rate, I can live with a tiny loss in R-Value if the window is nice and clear. It's more of a cosmetic issue than an energy efficiency problem. Also, I have other plans to improve the efficiency of the windows drastically. Unfortunately, the long sides of my 2-story house face east and west. That's bad. The back side with the most windows (and a 2-car automatic aluminum garage door) faces the hot afternoon sun. Therefore, I'm going to install shutters and/or solar screens on the windows on the back side. That should cool things down a lot.

Also, I glued a radiant barrier on the entire inside area of the garage door, and it appears to have cooled down the garage quite a bit.

I also put my hot water tank on a timer, and that saves about $40 per month.

There's more that needs to be done, since my last electric bill for only 2176 KWH was $423.17 (i.e. 19.45 cents per KWH)! That's the highest electricity bill ever. The electricity situation here in Texas is getting bad. Check out these electricity rates.

I'll be back later to let you know how the other windows go (with the washing, etc.).

pjm · 08-01-2008, 12:18 PM

Dan,

If you wouldn't mind can you post detailed instructions of how you drilled the holes? As like what kind of bit you used, etc. Maybe even with a few photo's? I also have a foggy window and would like to try what you did and see if it works before throwing in the towel and buying a new window. Instructions would really help.

Thanks for posting this and I hope it has continued success.

Paul

JoeBeta · 08-01-2008, 12:27 PM

The clear tape with pinholes sounds like the solution. Don't forget to patent the idea so you can start your own franchise

d.a.n · 08-01-2008, 01:47 PM

pjm,

I used a Dremel tool and these diamond bits.

I didn't use a liquid coolant (seen in the video referenced below), but may do that in the future (using a dental water-pik). Sometimes, the tip of the drill bit actually glowed orange/red when it got too hot.

Here's a video of the process.

I'll work on getting some photos and a list of the detailed steps.

One thing I haven't discovered yet is a cheap way to definitively detect tempered glass (without buying a $349+ detector). I'm afraid one of my windows is tempered glass, but there are no markings on it. You shouldn't try to drill tempered glass, because it will explode into a thousand tiny bits of glass. Most windows are not tempered glass. Usually, only doors with glass, or low windows.

P.S. Yes, I drilled on the inside. I think the seals with tape will last much longer on the inside. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that due to the wide temperature and moisture extremes outside than inside would make drilling the holes on the inside a better choice.

pjm · 08-01-2008, 03:52 PM

Dan,

Thanks for the info, and the video. You said you did your's on the inside of the house right? I don't have a dremel, but I have a roto-zip which I think is basically the same tool. I'll have to give it a try and see how it works.

Thanks again.

macman · 08-24-2008, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d.a.n

I'll know in a few days if the one-way valves work. I also plan to try a simple bead of clear silicone caulk at the top hole, with a few pin holes in the caulk. That may be enough to allow moisture to escape, while being much less conspicuous than a small one-way valve (which came from a degassing coffee bag; see below).

Hi everybody,
I'm a newbie to this forum, and have been searching for a method to get rid of the condensation between my windows...that's how i ended-up in this forum.

The degassing valve in the coffee pouch is a great idea, which I'm going to look into. Another thought was the similar valve that is now being used in the Reynolds Vacuum freezer bags....too bad their colored light blue.

Another thought might be to use the little vacuum that Reynolds sells to work with those vacuum bags to remove excess moisture and air from the window....any thoughts if that's a good, or not so good idea?

d.a.n · 08-24-2008, 03:47 PM

Macman,

I've tried a small piece of thick transparent packing tape with tiny holes poked in each, and the windows have not fogged up again.

My next step is to try washing the inside of the windows with:
(1) a dental pick (with alcohol) that provides a strong fluid stream.
(2) a web-shop-vac for suction out the alcohol.

I think alcohol will clean the inside of the windows better, and evaporate without leaving spots.

PJM, Yes, I drilled the holes on the inside of the window. The tape (or seal) will last much longer on the inside, aside from being much easier to replace (especially on upper floors not at ground level).