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"Defogging" double-pane windows .... a gimmick??

593K views 133 replies 57 participants last post by  Nathan 
#1 ·
I posted on another home forum about removing the condensation between the panes in my two 51" x 61" picture windows. I bought the house in December when there wasn't much condensation, but now it's pretty bad. The people who responded to post noted that I'd have to have the glass replaced entirely. That's looking to be around $700 - $800. But I saw a Yellow Pages add that advertised a company that could defog windows. So I started reading about it on the internet (which always requires scrutiny and skepticism) and there are a number of companies saying that, in many situations, windows can be defogged.

Here are a few:

http://www.defogit.com/
http://www.defogusa.com/HowItWorks.html
http://www.wcofa.com/
http://www.ccwwi.com/Default.html

Here's an article in the Ottawa newspaper about it:
http://www.ccwwi.com/images/Ottawa_Citizen_Article.pdf

Is this defogging process truly possible? effective? Anybody tried it?

BTW, the person who used to own this house is no longer living and I can't find out who installed the windows. AFGD is stamped inside the window and I talked to the local dealer of this glass manufacturing company. They said I'd have to find the contractor who installed the windows to initiate any warranty that may be valid on the windows .... basically a dead end for me.

Hoping for an inexpensive solution, but trying to be realistic....

Alex Z
Knoxville, TN
 
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#5 ·
Yes! Window defogging does work, and well.

First of all, you do not need a new window if just the insulated glass unit is foggy. There is MUCH more to be said! You can make the repair by replacing the insulated glass unit alone and retain the sash and frame assembly, or you can use the defog repair method you mentioned.

Second, moisture inside a window does not mean the seal has broken. A seal *may* have broken or it may not. The secondary seal of an insulated glass unit is not impervious to air. This is one reason why most every insulated glass unit has a moisture control product inside- a dessicant to absorb the inevitable moisture that will enter every ig during its lifespan. Often the moisture is present because the insulated glass has reached its moisture threshold; there is more moisture inside the glass than the dessicant can effectively absorb and hide.

Take an ice cube and place it on the "clear" window glass of similar age and design for between :45-1 min. You just lowered the dew point at that spot. Now wipe away the moisture from the outside of the glass. You'll probably find that there is also a moisture spot inbetween the glass too that you cannot wipe away. WoW! Your "clear" window has moisture in it! Where is the seal broken though? Hmmm?

Third, when properly defogged using the methods of the companies you listed in your question, the moist air has been replaced with a still, dry air space and the insulation ability of the window has been greatly improved from the wet condition and will insulate very near its newly manufactured state.

I've got six repaired windows in my own home and will continue to use this defog repair method to maintain my insulated glass as the rest of them fail. It has worked great!

If you do not have a company in your area to make this repair, then the intermediate cost option would be to have a glass company replace the insulating glass in your window. Buying a whole new window is an option, but may not be necessary unless you are unhappy with the window style or function.

'hope this helps.
 
#18 ·
Thinking about looking at real estate built in the 30's, hey it's 80 years later and some of these old homes still look great yet. These new story book homes with a two story high bunch of windows as wide as the front wall facing south are sure going to give someone problems down the road, and well before that last payment is made. One neighbor in a new story book home with a huge curve glass argon filled window had the outer glass pop up in our sub zero weather, he got a new window under warranty, but that does not cover installation. The windows I got stuck with, hey they were the greatest thing in the world are removed from the outside with that now unavailable vinyl strip that was told was epoxied in with no way to remove it.

Went to a couple building supply stores and looked at new windows, many of them you have to remove the entire frame to remove the panel to change a piece of glass, what happens if a kid throws a baseball at that? You're screwed, what are they thinking? But it is that way everywhere, if the motor and heater element goes bad in a dryer, it's cheaper to buy a new dryer than the price of those two parts. But then you are also stuck with a 30 buck recycling bill to carry your old dryer to the dump, they won't even pick it up!

I don't like the way our world is going.
 
#55 · (Edited)
I own a house that was built in 1992 and the windows started fogging about 5 years ago. This summer I finally started to address the issue and was hoping I might be able to repair them myself. The sash's are wood and the exterior of the sash is wrapped in aluminum. The IGU's are held into the sash with vinyl moldings that lock into grooves cut into the perimeter of the sash. Using a couple of putty knives, I was able to release the moldings, remove all 4 of them and then remove the IGU. The bedding "glaze" used for the IGU is a clear, non-hardening type of glaze, so the IGU's came out easily once the vinyl trim was removed.

To start, I cut open one of the IGU's and tried to remove the calcium deposits on the glass. I tried various fine-grade rubbing compounds with an electric buffer, but I was only able to remove about 70% of the calcium etching. Unless you have a glass buffing set-up (which run $200-300), forget about cleaning the old glass. Even if you get the calcium spots off, the glass underneath them is etched or frosted. Unless the etching is buffed out, the window will still appear slightly cloudy.

You can buy new glass of course, so that was my next course of action. Glass comes in various grades for windows. There is clear, low E, bronze tinted, etc. You want to try and buy glass that will match the rest of your windows. Mine was clear and two pieces of clear glass in a standard window size runs about $20.

After I cut the old glass off the IGU spacers and cleaned the butyl off the spacers and glass, I found that two of the spacers are filled with molecular sieves (a desiccant). This is used to absorb any moisture that is in the air when the IGU is assembled and to absorb any moisture that might leak in when the IGU starts to fail. You can buy new desiccant (it runs about $30 for 5 lbs - enough to do all the windows on your block) or you can dry the old desiccant (and hope it's microscopic pores are not clogged with minerals) and reuse it. I dried mine in an oven set on warm, then put it in an air tight container after it cooled.

When ready to assemble, I reloaded the spacers with desiccant and prepared my new glass for assembly. You'll find new glass is filthy and since the inside surfaces are forever encapsulated and unaccessible once assembled, these surfaces have to be perfectly clean before hand. In factories where IGU's are built, this is accomplished in a clean room by an automated glass cleaning machine. In my basement this is accomplished by windex and a lint-free cloth. Each surface has to cleaned at least 3 times to get the glass perfectly clean. Even so, there will be some lint particles that will find their way into the IGU, but that's about the best your going to do under the circumstances. After cleaning the glass I carefully positioned the IGU spacer frame on the glass, set the other piece of glass on top of the spacer and clamped the IGU "sandwich" with spring clamps.

When choosing an adhesive to seal the IGU with, I decided that automotive windshield urethane would be best. In IGU factories though, Butyl rubber is used. Butyl is a solid at room temperature, and so in order to apply it (and to help it stick tenaciously to the glass), the butyl is heated and pressure-fed through a "gun" directly into the outer space between the glass and spacer. These heated butyl set-ups cost around $5000, so windshield urethane seemed more cost effective in my situation. I cleaned the outer glass edges and spacer with alcohol and when it dried, caulked the cavity between the spacer and glass edge with urethane. I used a putty knife to smooth the filled cavity flush with the outer edges of the glass. The finished result looked pretty good, but when it dried I found I could easily peel the urethane from the inner glass surface. Auto windshields have a black primer applied to their outer edge and this surface allows the urethane to stick to the glass. Apparently, urethane won't stick very well to plain glass and so my "experimental project" was unsuitable for use as an IGU.

At this point I called around to a couple of glass shops and priced out some new, factory made IGU's. They were around $63 per sash or about $130 per window (for my 22" x 28" IGU's - prices vary by size). You can buy an inexpensive, new vinyl window at Home Depot for about $150, although the quality of these windows might be an issue. Next I did some more research and found some local "factories" where IGU's are made. Some will deal with the general public and their prices are $48 for each sash or about $100 per window. These are the factories where the glass shops get their IGU's made. The glass shops mark up the price, so if you can find an IGU factory in your area, this is where you will find the cheapest price. $100 per window for the 8 windows in my small house seems like a fair deal to me. When you compare that to the price and labor for a new window it's a no-brainer (as long as your sash and frames are OK). When compared to the price of rebuilding your existing IGU's (provided you can find a method that would perform as well as a new IGU) it's only about 30-40% more. At this point in my project, this seems like a bargain.

Rebuilding your own IGU's may be feasible, but there are many pitfalls along the way and the cost savings may not be what you think, especially when you figure in all the aggravation. You basically have to educate yourself on how IGU's are commercially manufactured and then try and duplicate that in your own shop. Getting the right kind of glass cut to the exact size, cleaning the glass surfaces, dealing with whether to use new desiccant or not and finding a suitable adhesive to seal the unit are some of the more difficult issues.

I hope my post has helped some of you with your IGU issues and I wish you good luck with your own IGU projects.
 
#69 ·
Calcifying in windows

This occurs when the wet surface is sun-baked over and over. The window defogging mentioned before will tell you they have a majic potion which is actually availble from window cleaning supplier.

They will also tell you about their other majic solution that leaves no streaks to sun bake, but don't get me wrong these guy's (franchisees) are brainwashed by these Companies into believing all this.

Each one of those defoggers are franchised and they are told about these majic solutions formulated just for them and each franchisee gets to pay $20 a gal. for what is 99% water. They call this Wetter Water, well wetter water is available from people like ABC Window cleaning Supply as wetter water or slik. The window cleaning induxtry use this to lessen the wear on their squeegees and disapate water faster.

Both these products are sold in concentrates and 1 gallon of concentrate makes 1,200 gals of the majic potion. Oh yes, the concentrate sells for about $12 a gallon.

To remove the calcium deposit buy some calcium remover, mix it accordingly, if you have drilled a 3-5mm hole at the bottom of your window, put your solution into a garden pressure sprayer and jig a small metal tube bent at a angle, introduce into the hole and spray the inside of your thermopane a few time. The excess water will escape through the hole you drilled and suck up the balance of the liquid with a syringe.

Hope this helps.
 
#70 · (Edited)
Well, this is a very old thread but I think worth keeping alive.

In manufacture the space between the glass is purged of air and typically Argon or Krypton is fed into that space and then plugged off. Those gases are void of oxygen. Oxygen holds moisture. If there is oxygen infiltration into the space between the two sheets of glass water molecules will condense and fogging occurs.
The desiccant is added to absorb some of the moisture when the seal between the pains begins to fail. The Manufacturer puts it there to help get them through the warranty period. In any event, It does not magically make moisture go away. It absorbs it until it becomes saturated. Then your windows begin to fog up. All windows will eventually fail.
Any attempt to repair a fogged window without taking it apart and resealing the pains is a waste of time. Just my opinion and the fix is is a DIY project.
My suggestion is this. Disassemble the window. Remove all the silicone on all glass surfaces. Clean the glass carefully and thoroughly and use a lint free cotton cloth. Use 4 - ¼” sq clear plastic spacers cut from plastic rods available at most hobby stores. (NOTE: Your windows may vary with the factory spacing between the pains so measure that before disassembly, you might need a 3/16” spacer, as an example.) With the glass on a flat surface place the spacers on all 4 corners of the pain. Apply a silicon bead around the entire edge using a quality clear “glass silicon”. Place the second pain on top any align the two. Once the silicon has set-up remove the 4 spacers. Silicon over 2 of the 4 holes. That leaves you an inlet/outlet hole.
I use the argon from my wire-feed welder to purge the window of O2. After 5 seconds I’ve pushed 98+% of the O2 out of the sandwiched pains and I apply silicon to first the outlet hole while I'm still purging and then the inlet.
This process is very close to how the window was made at the factory. Argon is available anywhere that sells Oxygen/Acetylene for your gas torch set. For $250-$300 in materials you can do 500 windows +.
I’ve used lengths of silicon “rod” that you cut to fit a window and just add a dab of the tube stuff at the corners. I’ll have to look who it was that sold these to me. The rods are cut to fit and they are firm enough to hold the pains apart without using any spacers.

It's worth noting that Argon is a noble gas and is not flamable.

Just my ol 2¢
 
#86 ·
hi i am not advertising but giving some advice which i defiantly know about as i have been doing this for 4 years now

there are many presumptions with drilling glass and venting

first of all IT DOES WORK

tools/parts needed

1 dremmel mains or battery
2 diamond burr(drill) cylinder type
3 water sprayer
4 valves

i am obviously not go into the full process of repairing DGU's but here is a brief out line if you want more info you can of course contact me if admin and moderators of this forum don't mind

you drill 2 holes in the glass from the outside in opposite corners through 1 lite of course then you apply valves the valves are not too ready available but i know where sorry this part doesn't help much but as i said i am not advertising just helping out

these so called valves shelter the hole from driving rain and of course stops water getting between glass

the effectiveness of the r value of your DGU is hardly altered and no figures are out as yet

i short the small amount of cold air that enters the DGU is quickly warmed up by either sunlight or indoor heating

i have done 1000,s units and no complaints

hope this help some who doubt and encourages some further
 
#6 ·
How long defogged?

Hi jgiedt,

You mentioned you have six windows in your home that were defogged?

How long have they held up so far?

I have a similar problem in my house with some large (and large $$ replace, uuggh...) windows.

Thanks.

Mike R
Granite Bay, CA (sacramento)
 
#7 ·
I did them in phases, as they fogged. The first three or four has been 3 years. The others are a year or so. No problems. They look great. Simple science on gas in enclosed containers plus the fact that dry air insulates. Why would they all of a sudden NOT hold up? I like it!

Hi jgiedt,

You mentioned you have six windows in your home that were defogged?

How long have they held up so far?

I have a similar problem in my house with some large (and large $$ replace, uuggh...) windows.

Thanks.

Mike R
Granite Bay, CA (sacramento)
 
#8 ·
fixing windows

Condensation between the lites in an IGU is a cosmetic issue. Unless there is argon loss or there is corrosion of the LowE coating, there is no difference in energy performance between an insulating glass unit with condensation and one without condensation between the lites.

There is a common misconception that all dual panes are gas filled with something other than air – and technically air is a gas of course - when in fact less than half of dual pane windows manufactured today have an argon (or other) gas infill between the lites.

There is very little likelihood that an older dual pane window ever had a gas infill because until the past few years very few dual pane IGU's were filled with argon. And many of those that were filled probably lost the argon fill years ago due to migration thru the (mostly obsolete) materials that were used to seal the unit at that time.

Gas escaping from the interior of the IGU does not cause fogging. Fogging is almost always (with a few rare exceptions) caused by moisture penetrating the seal between the two glass panes.

If anyone is interested, I can make this very long and technical, but for a quick answer, repairing a “failed” IGU is never a DIY project.

There are a number of companies out there that are advertising that they can clear up foggy IGU’s. In some cases they can give the appearance of “fixing” the IGU in the right circumstances.

The condensation between the lites is almost always caused by an excess of moisture that has entered the space because of a blown seal. The IGU “repair” does not take into account the seal failure and does nothing for it. The IGU repair (or “fog-out”) folks simply arrange for the IGU to evacuate the excess moisture by drilling holes in the glass and placing a one-way valve that works with natural heating and cooling cycles to replace the air within the IGU airspace. Basically, air comes in thru the breach in the seal and goes out thru the one-way valve.

Again, I can get much more technical on how and why this works – although the “fog-out” guys (and if “fog-out” happens to be a trademark or use name of a particular company I am not aware of it – if so, then I am using it generically and mean no comment for or against a particular company or product) have all sorts of interesting claims on their various sites – often exaggerated and a few that are simply incorrect – concerning the performance of a typical IG window system.

Still, the basic concept is sound – with certain restrictions it may be possible to clear up the condensation between the lites of an IGU using the method that they promote. Again, they don’t do anything particularly earth-shattering other than allow air movement between the lites which allows the moist air to escape from between the panes – much the same as a single pane acts with a storm window.
 
#9 ·
" You need new windows."

Thought this was a DIY board with real tips, am a retired engineer, not one of those guys that sat behind a desk, have a complete metal, wood, and electronics shop and like to do everything myself. For one thing, a means to beat the credit card companies and the IRS, if some guy is charging you 70 bucks an hour for something you can do yourself, you actually end up paying over twice the price as you are using post tax dollars, and if you have to pay interest, just another slap in your pocket book. I built my own home in 1970 while carrying on a full time job, with good buying and hard work, had it paid off in three years. Also do all my own vehicle work, but do have my Ram reflashed now at the dealer, not about to pay $7,500.00 for the equipment required just for a particular brand of vehicle. Think this reflashing is crazy.

Another thing that is crazy is argon filled windows, I had to sell my own built home because of a job change and purchased my present home in 1985, it's paid off, been for, for some time, take good care of it, but also sharing your problems with foggy windows, I have six out of 45 panes that are foggy, was only four last year, two more this year.

Saving 60 t0 70% off the cost of new windows doesn't sound very good to me to have some guy come out to my home and make a mess out of it. Drilling a couple of holes is no big deal, I have the tools to get those holes to within +/- 0.0001" if I have to but they refuse to sell me those check valves. Then they claim to use a proprietary cleaning solution, what? Soap and water? Maybe even denatured alcohol, I have both air compressors, shop vacuums, and even a good sized vacuum pump and can experiment if need be. They talk about silica jel, I don't see that stuff in my windows.

And I don't throw away my dirty dishes either.

I feel like I was ripped off, not only by Koebe & Koebe that has no solutions, you are out of warranty, twenty years ago, they would sell direct to me, now it's strictly going to some lumber company that doesn't even have a parts book. They tell me to bring a window in and leave it there for a couple of weeks until the no-nothing rep comes around, how stupid do people think I and the rest of us are? And then to have to pay a huge markup on that stuff.

We are sure getting ripped off by these tax credits and DOE regulations, I checked into the R value of argon filled windows as opposed to solid insulated double thickness glass, the difference was infinitestmal. Maybe a guy would save a couple of bucks a year in fuel cost, but after the warranty would have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars for window replacements. And real insulated glass is neither recommended nor eligilible for a tax credit. Something is very fishy here, of course, real insulated glass won't leak.

Then there is the building inspector to deal with, believe the main requirement to get these jobs besides being a brother-in-law to the mayor is to have an IQ less than 1.998. Ran into this about replacing the hot water heater, wanted to install one of these new high effeciency forced ventilated heaters. First I can't install one in the basement because the snow may getter higher than the PVC vents, but why to you permit forced ventilated furnaces in the basement? Duh!!! And why can't I raise these cheap pipes a couple of feet? Besides with my overhangs, no snow every gets near the house anyway. You just can't do that. But after finding about all the problems with these heaters, extra electrical, failure of the control mechanism, but to top everything else off including one a one year warranty on the Chinese made electronic garbage, they only save 20 therms per year at an initial installation cost of several hundreds more.

Where is the savings in either these water heaters or argon filled windows? It's stupid and downright criminal to the home owner, and what about the guy with a 30 year mortgage and every increasing property taxes and interest rates? Work your can off just to end up with a pile of junk?

There has to be a way where a guy can clean and reclaim these windows, after 23 years, they still look new, except for that stupid fog in between the glasses. If I find anything, and I am looking, will let you know, already thought about painting them black.
 
#12 ·
" You need new windows."

We are sure getting ripped off by these tax credits and DOE regulations, I checked into the R value of argon filled windows as opposed to solid insulated double thickness glass, the difference was infinitestmal. Maybe a guy would save a couple of bucks a year in fuel cost, but after the warranty would have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars for window replacements. And real insulated glass is neither recommended nor eligilible for a tax credit. Something is very fishy here, of course, real insulated glass won't leak.
A 100% argon fill increases the thermal performance of an IG unit by 16%. A 50% argon fill increases the thermal perfomance of an IG unit by 8%.
It's a straight linear relationship.

Argon fill has nothing to do with moisture between the lites of an IG unit, windows with no argon can and do have seal failures.

If I may ask, what is solid insulated double thickness glass or real insulated glass?
 
#10 ·
Greetings!

I live next door to a IGU manufacturer. He's going to get a big question from me today! My first thought is to change just the IGU. I see folks going into the shop and buying new units everyday. Expensive? not supposed to be. You can easily change the unit yourself with just a few hand tools. Check the phone book or Internet and find a glass distributer like PPG. Don't go down to the local glass shop or window company!

-- pete
 
#13 ·
a friend of mine had one of these franchised services come to his house and do some windows. this was in spring of last year, by christmas time they fogged up worse than before.

he would have been better off just covering the glass with $50 bills, still wouldn't be able to see out, but the view would have been much better
 
#14 ·
just had the guy here...

just had the guy here associated with http://www.ccwwi.com.

first off, if its diy then i suggest you do so... kinda a rip off at $300 to do two skylights!

using a dremel type tool the guy put holes on the inside corners of the window (dependent of the size and ability to clean) then he sprayed some cleaning solution in and then a rinse. spray it in the top and suck it out the bottom.

"the installation of the 'micro' DefoggerTM valve and seal"
then he covered the wholes with clear plastic stickers! and the "valve" is another one of these stickers with grating holes... which will definitely keep larger insects out!

now, if this actually works then i will be happy but wish i paid less of course. i should have asked the guy how long it would take him before i agreed cause $300/hour is definitely a rip off!

i think given what everyone has said then i suspect whether this approach works or not is complex. for example, is the seal busted, how much of a leak does one have and is the leak allowing air from inside in or from outside.

i suspect it may be worth a try instead of replacement. if you diy and it fails then you are just out the time taken.
 
#15 ·
I checked with a local glass supply company, if I bring my casements in, he will measure them order the glass, and on the second two mile trip will install them for an average price of 100 bucks a window using new argon filled gas.

He will do that while I am waiting so I don't have to worry about rain if I pick a clear day. Windows are easy to snap out. Sounds like a much better deal than having some guy come over and drill holes.

I told him I have Koebe & Koebe windows, was to the factory and was told the frames were encased in epoxy. He said he has done many windows like that before and can replace the glass in about twenty minutes. Have no idea what his trick is, but willing to risk 100 bucks and find out, if okay, will bring the others in. I know he was in business for over 30 years.

Was questioning this

Paul Lacey
Chief Development Officer
Crystal Clear Window Works USA, LLP
475 Craighead Street
Nashville, TN 37204
Tel: 615-385-0240 ext 102
Fax: 615-385-0304
www.getthefogout.com

Never got a quote from them, can't do it myself, but looks like it could be a waste of both time and money.

Has anyone found replacement argon filled glass on the web? Koebe tells me they buy it but wouldn't tell me where. I tried a search, found plenty of new windows for sale, but never just that double glass with the aluminum frame.
 
#16 ·
Seems like I am up the creek again, have the old style Kolbe & Kolbe windows with the solid wood inside and a snap in vinyl strip on the outside that cannot be removed without wrecking it. A Kolbe rep came over, said these windows are not argon filled, just e-glass, and when that vinyl shrinks moisture can get it. And that is why I have moisture between the glass. Said I should seal those cracks where that vinyl has shrunk to protect the good windows, they will last a lot longer, better do that.

He let me in on a secret, http://www.cardinalcorp.com/ is a key supplier to all the major window manufacturers and their plant is only 50 miles from me. I feel the only way I can save my old windows, if replacement glass doesn't cost me an arm and a leg, is to route out the inside of windows and use a matching window molding that I can easily make while sealing the outside. Otherwise can buy new panels with the glass already installed for about 200 bucks a piece, that can add up in a hurry.

Terrible how this country of ours as become, while natural gas is strictly a domestic product in the last four years the price here went up from 64 cents a therm to $1.56, it's criminal as natural gas has nothing to do with OPEC, man, are we getting screwed.
 
#17 ·
I just thought I would toss this in - The Handyguys did a how-to podcast/blog post on replacing an IGU in a modern window. We didn't cover every possible window type but hopefully provide enough information for a DIYer to be able to do this themselves. We also covered how to glaze old windows.
 
#19 ·
foggy windows

I have read much but no real answers. First I will have to look up desiccant in the dictionary, then convert to the every day word.
Not sure what happened to my large Thermal window slider but I have 10 more just like it and some very large Thermal windows, basically every window in the house is the same (Andersen) and no help from them at all.
My windows are 3 years out of warranty and yet the company states the seal they use is 50 to 100 year flexible, guess not!
So some say seal break some say not seal problem, these windows were not cheap at installation and the manufactures are not offering any help or solutions for the window problems they have been aware of for 30 years.
My question is why haven't the thermal window manufactures come up with a home kit to resolve this 300,000,000 window problem in 2 countries??? There must be some serious money to be made in these window home kits at $50.00 bucks a pop. After all the manufactures make plenty of dough replacing broken windows from storms and from new contruction. So lets get some lobbyist going to Washinton and force the Companies to give something back to the suckers that fell for the pitch, maybe offer a vent repair kit with every window sold like it or not!
 
#20 ·
Broken seals are more cosmetic than energy losers.

Look at the R-values or U-values of the different window panes.

1. A leaking seal is not as good a good seal, but it may look O.K.

2. A good seal will rovide a clear view and and percentage improvement in insulation.

3. An Argon fill cavity will offer a bigger improvement over a unfilled normal glazing.

All are just small degrees degrees of insulation and none of them are very good compared to the rest of the walls (R2 compared to R19). In many cases, curtains or blinds drawn at night will offer more savings annually that fancy glazing.

It is very difficult to cost-justify the replacement of IGU panels. If you have a fogged window that is unattractive, that is a different story. The window insulating game is just that, when you consider that you probably lose more from infiltration around outlets in exterior walls than the benefit of up-selling glazing systems.

I replaced an oversized IGU panel in an old sliding door that was sound and had low infiltration because it was visually not acceptable. I was glad to pay the installed price for the panel. I have three other panels that are leaking, but it is difficult to find (depends on the time of day and the sun angle), so there is little reason to do so. My annual heat with R13 2x4 construction in Minnesota is very low (max of $85.00 for heat and hot water in the winter in Minnesota) for a 150 sf townhouse. Due to my north and east exposure, my AC is only a max of $50.00/mo over the average for lights, so sun is not an issue. In the winter, all windows coverings are obviously open during the day and most are closed at night. - I have a hard time justifying replacing a good looking panel or four on energy savings compared to what I normally spend.

Dick
 
#21 ·
fogged up

Good point what does Holiday Inn do for fogged windows?
I guess the point of my venting this situation, our income like many others has gone sour. Gasoline, food and the utilities companies has a death grip on our throats and can't afford to replace anything. I can only work part time at 60 and hubby at 65 will never be able to work again and nothing to show for it.
My neighbor said if I ever find a solution he will be happy to defog my window along with many other seniors in this community.
Rust is starting to show at the bottom between the glass of that Vinyl door window by Andersen.
 
#22 ·
What's the solution sprayed inside the window (see: http://www.cvwei.com/video.html)

What's the solution sprayed inside the window (see video: http://www.cvwei.com/video.html)?
Alcohol? Methyl Hydrate?
I have many fogged windows (34 panes in 19 windows).
So, I decided to experiment on one small fogged window (with two about 18" x 18" panes).
I drilled a tiny hole (pin-hole size) with a diamond bit and Dremel in a small window (interior-side, upper-left and lower-right).
Waited a few days.
The fog was still there.
Drilled another tiny hole in the exterior-side (upper-right).
Waited a few hours.
Still no change.

So, I took the other pane apart.
There are tiny desiccant beads in the hollow aluminum border between the two panes of glass.
If you shake or turn the the window, you may be able to hear them rattling inside the frame.
What's up with that? Well, it turns out that window manufacturers put desiccant beads in the window to absorb moisture.
However, that desiccant has a limited effectiveness.
Also, few windows are truly air-tight (hence, the reason for the desiccant beads).
Therefore, most (if not all) two-pane windows have a built-in obsolesence.
Imagine that?
That's nice if your business is selling windws, eh?

Therefore, since the window is still fogged, I'm wondering if the solution injected in the window has some evaporation and desiccant qualities?
It would be nice to know how to do this since $45 per pane (for 34 panes) would run about $1530, and replacing the 19 windows would be triple that cost (or much more depending on the quality of the replacement windows).

And replacment windows might fog-up too within a few years (if not sooner; especially for cheaper brands).

Hmmmmmm . . . so, I guess the next step will be to try and wash and drain the test window pane with alcohol.
And there's still one other unknown: the seals on the holes. Whatever is used should be semi-transparent, allow air to escape when air pressure increases, and keep insects out.
 
#23 ·
Made the holes in the upper-left and lower-right side of the windows a little larger (about 1/8 inch diameter), and the fog and water drops disappeared completely in both panes in two days (and there was quite a bit in both windows).
So, it appears that the holes can not be too small.
Next, I ordered some small one-way valves (which come on degassing coffee bags), and will (next) attach one to the top of each window, and place an air-permeable gauze over the lower holes of each window, and wait to see if the fog returns.
I believe the top valve must be a one-way valve (out), while the lower hole must have a simple two-way gauze (preferrably a transparent gauze to be less noticeable). If this works, it will be much less expensive than replacing all windows 17 windows in the house.
 
#24 ·
That's pretty cool. Assuming these holes were on the inside. I would be curious if you just used some clear tape and covered the holes how it would do. Or, if you could just leave them as is. The tape could easily be removed to defog as needed, if needed at all. Put the tape on when the humidity is very low and maybe you would be fine. Put it on when humidity is high then things may fog again.
 
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