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Old 05-03-2013, 03:40 PM   #31
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Deciding between build or remodel


I think I am going towards an idea with a metal building kit or just...metal building. Start it off as a shop, then transform it into a home. This would soothe some minds of previous posters, aside from those who think I would be safe in a trailer or mobile home when high winds and or tornadoes strike. I just don't want to live in such a thing unless it were in the calm season of the year.

The problems I see are the foundation. As stated, I plan on having a basement. (this also will almost doubly my square footage). Now all shops I have seen are on a solid slab. I think if I had the width at a small but decent size, I could omit some or all center support posts/beams (correct me if I am wrong) If I could do that, then I should be able to have a basement - Right? I suppose I could have center beams made extra long to go down to say a lolly pocket in the basement.

Question to arise is would a 8" thick or concrete masonry block foundation wall support the building? Steel buildings are lighter in the exterior, but I am not familiar with the bracing and weight distribution from snow on the roof down to the foundation on the type of building. I've always seen steel or some rigid aluminum sill plates for the framing of metal buildings to go on, which is anchored into the solid concrete slab. I imagine it would be just like footings, with j rebar or anchor bolts for the sill plate.

@TheJerk - thanks for the story. I am not sure what all I would be getting into with the remodel place. There was termites, and termite damage was repaired to an extent. I doubt it's all fixed...but the termites do appear to be gone. I know with rotten wood around some of the windows that sheeting, wall studs, and possibly parts of the sill plate would need redone.

@sixeightten - I made a new post because the old one I made got over ran with a couple/few people arguing a different subject. I didn't run away from it because I didn't like what I heard. I made a few posts and then some other postees made wrong assumptions and it just went down hill from there because they did not read my responses in the middle.

@Squishy - I dunno...I know it sounds crazy just having a place be watertight and working from that, but the idea was to get a small enough loan to have nothing inside be damaged, but also be affordable to pay off in a timely fashion.

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:45 PM   #32
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Just curious, what age are you?
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:31 PM   #33
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I could omit some or all center support posts/beams (correct me if I am wrong) If I could do that, then I should be able to have a basement - Right?
Huh? What does omitting beams have to do w having a basement or not? You have a post or beam if your span dictates. Joist spans and I-Beams are things you gotta go research. When I did our addition, the city wanted to see full-on plans. Had to include elevation, cross-section of the foundation, energy report, etc.

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Question to arise is would a 8" thick or concrete masonry block foundation wall support the building? I've always seen steel or some rigid aluminum sill plates for the framing of metal buildings to go on, which is anchored into the solid concrete slab. I imagine it would be just like footings, with j rebar or anchor bolts for the sill plate.
Look here... this seems to indicate that yes, an 8" masonry block wall is fine.

http://free.woodworking-plans.org/french-country-house-plans-with-4-bedrooms-7229.html

Not to be critical but your question seems so basic... I found that link in about 10 seconds of googling... But how high over grade would you build that? Where would you put your rebars? How many? Does your elec ground need to tie into the foundation? How often do you need to set bolts for your sill plate? When I got concrete bids, the concrete companies were not interested in discussing what's good or not... they wanted to be handed a plan, bid it, dig, pour. They were very no-nonsense. Not in a bad way, but you had to have your act together. It seems like you're just scratching the surface but ready to buy and get started. I think u should do an addition on an existing house before you attempt to build a house from scratch.

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@Squishy - I dunno...I know it sounds crazy just having a place be watertight and working from that, but the idea was to get a small enough loan to have nothing inside be damaged, but also be affordable to pay off in a timely fashion.
All I'm sayin... is having done most projects separately which would combined give me the experience to say I've learned most facets of building a house -- I think you're underestimating your cost. Nobody wants you to end up w a half-done house, $60k loan, rent for your living space, and insufficient funds to finish the job. You gotta plan 50% - 100% over what you had there cuz you will encounter overruns.

And you need time. You still have not said if you'll be doing this nights & weekends or full-time and if it's a one-man build. If I was to build a house it would take me 2 years if I could do it full-time w/o working elsewhere or raising kids. Nights & weekends? No way.

-mike

Last edited by SquishyBall; 05-03-2013 at 09:33 PM.
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:55 PM   #34
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Deciding between build or remodel


@g1 I am 18


@Squishy The support beam was in reference to shop buildings. Kits you buy are for solid slabs. The smaller ones do not have any support in the center, it's all on the outside walls. If I had a basement, and there was need for center support beams for the roof of the building, I would need a seamless beam from roof truss to a concrete lolly pocket in the basement. I have not ever seen a shop building (all metal building) with a basement. Ideally the width would not be too big of span to need center support. You see what I am saying here?

My question is basic about the foundation wall, yes. Since all steel buildings I have seen are on solid concrete slabs I questioned what it would be like on a thin basement wall instead. The outside lateral force from expansive dirt would be in affect unlike for solid concrete slabs.

Would you consider the 15k for well & septic then 35k for metal building, and 20k for foundation and flooring to be an under estimate? Especially if I ended up doing a block wall with rebar and concrete on my own rather than hire it done for the foundation?

Cheers.
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Old 05-04-2013, 12:50 AM   #35
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Deciding between build or remodel


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I had a thread from a week or two ago, here about estimating the cost of a build.

Here is a spreadsheet that I have created trying to break the costs down. LINK


Those figures are ones that I know will be similar situations for each house. As you can tell I left out any finish materials other than what it takes to seal a house up.

I'm not necessarily asking if my figures seem realistic, but I am open to opinions.

I'd like to know what areas I have missed, and then a whole hearted opinion on the options of building my own house, or buying the fixer-upper and reworking a few things. It's a heck of a lot of work to renovate down to the walls in old lath and plaster places. It's also a lot of work to build a modest house
Your not even being realistic with those numbers! you need structual engineering to sign off on prints. a architect to draw up the plans that is cost around 4 dollars per square foot. a well that is crap shoot as well. Bringing utilites in is way off what ought wire number are you using for your primary feed line are you running 200 amp or 340 amp service? surveying around here cost 150 a hour with a 4 hour min. When I went through for building my dream home it was five years of planing! I had volumes of notes on every thing elcetrical load calcs to how many sheetrock screws I would need. leagal help had lawyers on retainer for any legal problem that migh an did arise. had to sit dow with a truss engiener and go over the load clacs and truss engiering sevral times. at 100 dollars per hour. Inspection fees and whe they call out violations what is your plan to fix them? Here is a night mare Sanrio my dream home. This happened to me. Building is up dried in called for a framing inspection. Inspector comes out and inspects asks for my truss spects walks around making notes. says have a problem. your in a wind zone for 100 MPH your trusses are rated for 85 MPH. Holy crap your pants bat man! what to do? truss company folded a few months after I had my house up. 10,000 dollars later two structural engineers later I got my truss rated for 125 MPH. things go wrong. Always plan for 30% over run of all your costs then add 10% more to that. I wish you luck. But I think 1 you have zero building knowledge 2 can't be more then 18 and 3 you will be way over your head in this project. my advice to you also never ever barrow money from family! or friends go to a bank and get the money. Best of luck.
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Old 05-04-2013, 07:55 AM   #36
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Deciding between build or remodel


I'm done with this thread. This guy stopped making any sense some time ago and a DIY forum should not think it can design a home. And the parameters for this one change faster than windspeed and direction in a good sailboat race.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:01 AM   #37
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Your not even being realistic with those numbers! you need structual engineering to sign off on prints. a architect to draw up the plans that is cost around 4 dollars per square foot. a well that is crap shoot as well. Bringing utilites in is way off what ought wire number are you using for your primary feed line are you running 200 amp or 340 amp service? surveying around here cost 150 a hour with a 4 hour min. When I went through for building my dream home it was five years of planing! I had volumes of notes on every thing elcetrical load calcs to how many sheetrock screws I would need. leagal help had lawyers on retainer for any legal problem that migh an did arise. had to sit dow with a truss engiener and go over the load clacs and truss engiering sevral times. at 100 dollars per hour. Inspection fees and whe they call out violations what is your plan to fix them? Here is a night mare Sanrio my dream home. This happened to me. Building is up dried in called for a framing inspection. Inspector comes out and inspects asks for my truss spects walks around making notes. says have a problem. your in a wind zone for 100 MPH your trusses are rated for 85 MPH. Holy crap your pants bat man! what to do? truss company folded a few months after I had my house up. 10,000 dollars later two structural engineers later I got my truss rated for 125 MPH. things go wrong. Always plan for 30% over run of all your costs then add 10% more to that. I wish you luck. But I think 1 you have zero building knowledge 2 can't be more then 18 and 3 you will be way over your head in this project. my advice to you also never ever barrow money from family! or friends go to a bank and get the money. Best of luck.
To me, it sounds like you had a lot of personal problems. Your grammar was sloppy and your points were too. If you honestly spent 5 years making plans you either built a mansion or were way too preoccupied. Your figures are also difference on location, including hourly rates. If you spent 5 years planning why would you have so many issues, needing lawyers, and getting the wrong trusses. I guess this will be the first post that I am saying I don't like what I hear because I don't see how it went that way. Also..if you read through the thread I have changed towards a metal kit instead. So...I would make a new post but I don't dare do that after being criticized for starting a new one.
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Old 05-04-2013, 08:02 AM   #38
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I'm done with this thread. This guy stopped making any sense some time ago and a DIY forum should not think it can design a home. And the parameters for this one change faster than windspeed and direction in a good sailboat race.
True..thanks for your time. Take care. I think I will unsub from the post, got what info I needed : do it in chunks or just one single building to start with.

Last edited by AlphaPilot; 05-04-2013 at 09:38 PM.
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Old 05-04-2013, 09:35 AM   #39
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Well I can tell you are not even listing to the advice given. Go do what you want I know I don't care. Neither does those of us who gave some very sage advice. Go buy a general steel building advertised durning late night TV. Go barrow money from Mom and dad. I can tell one thing your 18 and have zero clue what life is about. best of luck your going to need it when the 2x4 of reality smacks you hard upside the head.

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Old 05-04-2013, 09:37 PM   #40
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Well I can tell you are not even listing to the advice given. Go do what you want I know I don't care. Neither does those of us who gave some very sage advice. Go buy a general steel building advertised durning late night TV. Go barrow money from Mom and dad. I can tell one thing your 18 and have zero clue what life is about. best of luck your going to need it when the 2x4 of reality smacks you hard upside the head.
You seem heavily presumptuous. Maybe you have an honest point, but I think you assume too much about me or possibly stereotype me for my generation.

I did not say anything about buildings advertised on tv. I talked about shops I have seen in reality. Money wouldn't be borrowed* from mom and pop. I don't see how "knowing what life is about" has any valid argument for your response to me, haha. Knowing things about construction may be pertinent to this post, nothing philosophical was being discussed. And thanks for the luck wish, I guess.

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Old 05-05-2013, 12:46 AM   #41
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You seem heavily presumptuous. Maybe you have an honest point, but I think you assume too much about me or possibly stereotype me for my generation.

I did not say anything about buildings advertised on tv. I talked about shops I have seen in reality. Money wouldn't be borrowed* from mom and pop. I don't see how "knowing what life is about" has any valid argument for your response to me, haha. Knowing things about construction may be pertinent to this post, nothing philosophical was being discussed. And thanks for the luck wish, I guess.
Have you ever been in 1 of these metal buildings? You live in Nebraska right.

1. The building is made out of sheet metal for it's exterior skin. Now think about the R Rating of that metal, because that is all it is, just thin metal. Any idea how much insulation your going to need in Nebraska in the winter? What about in the summer with the sun beating down on it as it heats up like a tin beer can. I just can't recommend this as a good solution to raise a family in eventually.

2. Have you ever been in 1 of these in a storm? I don't care how much insulation you put in, it's going to be very loud as every drop of water is heard as it hits the roof and walls.

3. Tornados. You mentioned those in your post as a reason for not getting a mobile home. Okay, mobiles get tied down with metal bands that are anchored hard into metal posts that are into concrete. The metal bands are attached to the frame of the home. Usually about 8 of these per trailer (meaning 16 on a double wide for instance) and they have a problem holding up to a tornado. Now, you want to get a metal building and place it on an 8 inch block wall with a seal plate. Okay, I assume it would be a metal seal plate which will be made out of sheet metal, not much thicker than the siding on a mobile. Have you ever seen what happens to these buildings in a tornado? Their like mobile homes basically as they are ripped from their foundations and then turn into giant kites because they leave the floor behind.

I'm going to make a suggestion to you that you just might be able to handle doing on your own, though it will take you time to do but meet your goals.

Use 8 inch building blocks and build your house out of that. Build it correctly and you can actually insulate the inside of each block with certain materials, build it a bit at a time (once your foundation/basement is constructed) and keep your costs down. However, I would highly recommend you take a masonry course at your local vocational school/college and get some hands on work with a masonry contractor. Your actual upfront costs will be minimal once the basement is in and you can build as you go.

later on in life if you need more room you can simply add on another room, if you want a better looking home just add a brick to the outside for example.
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Old 05-05-2013, 01:49 AM   #42
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Have you ever been in 1 of these metal buildings? You live in Nebraska right.

1. The building is made out of sheet metal for it's exterior skin. Now think about the R Rating of that metal, because that is all it is, just thin metal. Any idea how much insulation your going to need in Nebraska in the winter? What about in the summer with the sun beating down on it as it heats up like a tin beer can. I just can't recommend this as a good solution to raise a family in eventually.

2. Have you ever been in 1 of these in a storm? I don't care how much insulation you put in, it's going to be very loud as every drop of water is heard as it hits the roof and walls.

3. Tornados. You mentioned those in your post as a reason for not getting a mobile home. Okay, mobiles get tied down with metal bands that are anchored hard into metal posts that are into concrete. The metal bands are attached to the frame of the home. Usually about 8 of these per trailer (meaning 16 on a double wide for instance) and they have a problem holding up to a tornado. Now, you want to get a metal building and place it on an 8 inch block wall with a seal plate. Okay, I assume it would be a metal seal plate which will be made out of sheet metal, not much thicker than the siding on a mobile. Have you ever seen what happens to these buildings in a tornado? Their like mobile homes basically as they are ripped from their foundations and then turn into giant kites because they leave the floor behind.

I'm going to make a suggestion to you that you just might be able to handle doing on your own, though it will take you time to do but meet your goals.

Use 8 inch building blocks and build your house out of that. Build it correctly and you can actually insulate the inside of each block with certain materials, build it a bit at a time (once your foundation/basement is constructed) and keep your costs down. However, I would highly recommend you take a masonry course at your local vocational school/college and get some hands on work with a masonry contractor. Your actual upfront costs will be minimal once the basement is in and you can build as you go.

later on in life if you need more room you can simply add on another room, if you want a better looking home just add a brick to the outside for example.
Let him find out the hard way! he does not want or need our advice he knows what he wants. I say more power to him!
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:00 AM   #43
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You seem heavily presumptuous. Maybe you have an honest point, but I think you assume too much about me or possibly stereotype me for my generation.

I did not say anything about buildings advertised on tv. I talked about shops I have seen in reality. Money wouldn't be borrowed* from mom and pop. I don't see how "knowing what life is about" has any valid argument for your response to me, haha. Knowing things about construction may be pertinent to this post, nothing philosophical was being discussed. And thanks for the luck wish, I guess.
I think the philosophical element we have been dancing around is analogous to the three little pigs fable. The big bad wolf is of course the Nebraska elements, your own inexperience, and the time/money factor. The pigs and their respective structures are played by the fixer-upper, the metal out building, and the dream home in the country.

Instead of putting $4000 wheels on a $500 car or covering yourself in tattoos and piercings like many of your peers you are looking to build a house. I don't see how that could be anything less than admirable.

Some of the older guys here forget what it was like to have a dream but lack vision. We tend to remember all the land mines we stepped on along the way and have all too many "if I had it to do over stories." What you want to do is entirely possible. But it will be an extreme challenge. You have no doubt figured this out. Best wishes on your odyssey.
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Old 05-05-2013, 07:38 AM   #44
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I don't see how "knowing what life is about" has any valid argument for your response to me, haha.
And therein lies the crux of your problem. Like most your age, you believe you know all there to know and dismiss any advice that disagrees with that. I have raised five children (youngest now 34) and they all acted the same way as you for various periods of time. Making mistakes is a part of learning, and you're going to be learning a LOT. I wish you luck.
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Old 05-05-2013, 10:01 AM   #45
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And therein lies the crux of your problem. Like most your age, you believe you know all there to know and dismiss any advice that disagrees with that. I have raised five children (youngest now 34) and they all acted the same way as you for various periods of time. Making mistakes is a part of learning, and you're going to be learning a LOT. I wish you luck.
No, No, No. I am not by any means saying I have life figured out. I used that wording to explain I came to a construction driven forum, not to be preached on life lessons.

I think Polecat really summed up things for my perspective. He's very right about my generation and the idiocy of high schoolers and college kids now. I am well aware that this task I want to take on it...well...one of life's biggest challenges. Instead of going out and buying a home that is already to go, in the big city, with a large sum of debt - I prefer to design something, tinker with it, and build it. I must admit I change theories or ideas on the whim, NOT just because I am some naive child...but because this is what I have had on my mind for the past two years, especially the past year. Every. Damn. Day. Especially at night, or when alone. I don't have the scent of some girl's shampoo on my mind, or how I can pimp my ride out, what my next tattoo will be, or what big city I want to go to first, which ocean I wanna see, etc. You do not realize I can NOT talk about this subject with any of my friends. Most of my family has taken the normal route, buy their house and pay it off in 30 years. I guess this is my nice guy Sunday rant...but I really want to strive my situation.

To TheJerk and Nailbags... the shops here are actually really nice in the summer and winter. I know they are insulated. They are cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter. I think the warmer in the winter is because of radiant or infrared heat. With a tin shell, I would plan on using closed cell spray foam in the livable area for starters. I could frame out the place in 2x6 lumber, and use tin on the exterior...but I would imagine steel framing from the kit would have been nicer. The kits come with wind ratings, from 90 to 150 mph - at least the ones I looked at. Maybe that's a fallacy.

TheJerk, I have thought of that. Blocking the whole place. I am no mason, I have done brickwork on a porch with a fella, after the third row I got the hang of it, tamping, keeping it level. That was when I was 13 though and it was decor brick, not concrete mason brick so I know the idea will be much different. I question my skill to not only have the basement 8' wall perfectly plumb and level but then go ANOTHER 8 foot totaling about 10 foot (2 foot from basement) above grade? I imagine it would be solid if plumb. I would definitely need to be working with a mason.


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