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Old 03-14-2011, 08:14 PM   #1
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Water supply line runs through footing site


So after consulting with the building inspector, she wants to see the spread footings dug so the top will be level with the dirt. That meant I had a couple inches deeper to go in my first footing. I started doing that digging this evening, only to find that the main water supply runs right through where the footing goes. This is the first footing at the front corner ofthe house, it's hard to imagine how I could possibly not have a footing here. And of course I can't move this pipe.

Is it okay to have the water main embedded in a footing, or is there something I need to do about this?

ETA: Just realized... See, this is a 12" deep footing, the dirt in this area of the crawl space is maybe 4" below grade, so this means my water main enters the house at about 16" below grade.... Being in Michigan, shouldn't this be below the frost line???
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Last edited by WillK; 03-14-2011 at 10:12 PM. Reason: Just realized something
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Old 03-15-2011, 01:23 AM   #2
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Water supply line runs through footing site


Check with code enforcement. But it should be a lot deeper. It is 18" in OK. and AR. way south of you.

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Old 03-15-2011, 06:00 AM   #3
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Water supply line runs through footing site


you need to sleeve the wtr line PLUS add more conc & steel reinforcement,,,l IF you want to build properly, exceed your local rqmts,,,think of them as union labor just doing the minimum
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Old 03-15-2011, 09:21 AM   #4
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Water supply line runs through footing site


The footing size and spacing is specified by engineer, and I am going to be exceeding it. The depth was specified as 10", the depth I will be building is 12", and no rebar was specified. The number of footings I'm installing is increasing above the spec because of the plumbing stack being at the site of one of the specified footings, and the plans indicate using the existing center beam... I think my engineer underestimated the problems with the existing beam, so I plan to put in 2 new beams, so there are 4 beams running the length of the house in total. With the furnace right next to the center beam, there is no way I can temporarily support the joists on both sides without cantilevering by at least 6 feet on one side.

I'm going to be dealing with horrible logistics on this... I'm not sure what's worse, renting a mixer and carrying buckets of mixed concrete or carrying bags to a mortar tray and mixing them in the crawlspace by hand. I'm sure the suggestion will be to tear off the skirting and pour from outside, but that opens me up for rodents...

As far as sleeving the water line.. Would it be allowed to use a pvc pipe cut in half lengthwise so I don't have to cut the water supply line?
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Old 03-15-2011, 10:38 AM   #5
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Water supply line runs through footing site


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And of course I can't move this pipe.
Why not?

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Old 03-15-2011, 10:48 AM   #6
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Water supply line runs through footing site


The most fun in DIY is finding those unexpected and un-budgeted problems....

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I think my engineer underestimated the problems with the existing beam...
Just curious, do you have a reason to second guess your engineer. In my experience engineers don't 'underestimate' things..... Aside from cops, they are the most paranoid people you'll ever meet. And I mean that in a totally-loving-and-admiring-sort-of-way.

Also, if you are doing all this extra work to make sure your construction will 'exceed' why not move the water line? Yeah, it's time and money but if you are going to do it, do it right.

Right?

Good luck.
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Old 03-15-2011, 11:56 AM   #7
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Water supply line runs through footing site


Maybe I'm overestimating the difficulty of moving this pipe, but we're living in this house and with a 4 year old and 5 year old, there's always a toilet or bathtub in use. This is a large copper pipe, it's before the meter and before the shutoff that's after the meter, if there is a shutoff at the street I'm not aware of where it is. This pipe goes under this footing and based on the direction, it goes under concrete driveway because that starts at the edge of the house right next to this. Then, there's the problem of digging to 42" depth with a hand shovel in a 30" tall crawlspace with no direct access for removing dirt.

I suspect that my engineer did overdesign to compensate for the unknown, but I know that as he made the original plans, they showed all original floor joists oriented north-south. He missed the fact that in the last 10' of the house, the floor joists were oriented east-west. Not that I blame him, at the time there was a LOT of debris in the crawlspace, it took me a solid weekend day to get enough cleaned out to make the back side of the furnace accessible. Fallen insulation, broken concrete, rotten wood, tree branches, cob webs, old plumbing and wiring.

He also drew the plans with the original center beam showing as being existing under the full length of the house. It does not extend under the first 7' of the front room or the last 10'.

I don't find the beam acceptable because between 2 of the supports, there are splices in all 3 boards of the beam. This is where the stairway is supported, and it is the single largest sag in the floor. The photo below shows 2 of the splices, one at my finger, the other being really obvious.

I would not mind replacing the beam, but the furnace presents a problem implementing the replacement. One side of the beam is no problem to install a temporary support, but the floor joists do not overlap at the beam, they are simply butted against eachother. Besides, adding the 2 beams would allow me to place one of them directly under the load bearing walls that are going to be going up in the first floor with the floor plan changes that are coming in the next phase.

And maybe I'm an engineer myself, am I being paranoid? I'm a mechanical engineer working in automotive, not a structural engineer with a PE license.
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Old 03-15-2011, 12:09 PM   #8
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Water supply line runs through footing site


How sure are you that the pipe in question is a water line, being buried a mere 16 inches and not freezing is a puzzle, unless of course, your water line turned out to be a gas line.

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Old 03-15-2011, 12:17 PM   #9
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Water supply line runs through footing site


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As far as sleeving the water line.. Would it be allowed to use a pvc pipe cut in half lengthwise so I don't have to cut the water supply line?
Just use a section of pipe insulation to sleeve it, or even a larger dia. pipe with 1/3 or so cut out so you can slip it over the water line. The objective here is to simply keep the concrete from having direct contact w/ the water line.

As for the thickness, you can pour it at 10" as well, as it's obviously thick enough if it's engineered. The thickness and strength of that pad will FAR exceed the bearing capacity of the soil, meaning the post pad is far from being the weak point.

As far as the logistics of pouring in a crawl space, I'd consider installing a permanent functioning basement window to offer free light and easier access to the crawlspace both now & forever. Mix outside and pour the concrete down a short wood chute into the crawlspace. If the crawlspace is only 4 feet tall or less, you want to do the least amount of work down there as possible.
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Old 03-15-2011, 12:19 PM   #10
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Water supply line runs through footing site


Gas is on the other side of the house.

The pictures below show more of this same pipe where it goes through the back wall into the mud room where the meter is located.
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Old 03-15-2011, 12:22 PM   #11
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Water supply line runs through footing site


Looking at that is scary, but being as certain as you are, my guess is it would have to dive down before going out the wall / foundation, it would have to go to at least 48" below grade to prevent it from freezing.

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Old 03-15-2011, 12:28 PM   #12
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Water supply line runs through footing site


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How sure are you that the pipe in question is a water line, being buried a mere 16 inches and not freezing is a puzzle, unless of course, your water line turned out to be a gas line.

Mark
... And one more thing to add. This house has a great many things that are puzzling. It was built in 1917, Royal Oak was incorporated in 1921, and from the permit history, the first plumbing was installed in 1928. But I guess that wasn't as important as the chicken coop that went in 2 years earlier.
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Old 03-15-2011, 12:37 PM   #13
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Water supply line runs through footing site


How Royal Oak has changed since then, multi million dollar condos, and a happening downtown.

Great place to hang in the summer time.

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Old 03-15-2011, 12:39 PM   #14
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Water supply line runs through footing site


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Looking at that is scary, but being as certain as you are, my guess is it would have to dive down before going out the wall / foundation, it would have to go to at least 48" below grade to prevent it from freezing.

Mark
That sounds like something I would've said before I bought this house. I gave up on assuming that things were done right when this house or any subsequent work done on it was executed.

For example, this wall/foundation you refer to... The phrase "... and I use the term loosely" comes to mind. In the picture below you can see the stack of concrete blocks on dirt holding up the "sill plate" that doesn't have anything but cement blocks to sit on and the temporary beam I put in to replace 2 stacks of cement blocks so I could dig the footing and have a semblance of a foundation. Behind that you see the rotting T&G over which brick veneer is installed.
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Old 03-15-2011, 12:44 PM   #15
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Water supply line runs through footing site


Get a piece of 1-1/2" pvc cut it in half the length of your foundation, excavate around the pipe, install the halves seam in the horizontal position around the pipe, duct tape securely and pour concrete, I don't think there is any need to move the pipe.

Mark

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